Army Reserve Restructuring

[Remius]

There is defiantly a political current in our education system.

And certainly an activist agenda that has embedded itself in it.

 

[Eaglelord17]

A few problems:

1. Cadets offers a chance to be military adjacent, without being military for kids whose parents wouldn't allow them to sign-up for the reserves. You'd likely sour quite a few if at 16, two years before being able to make their own choices, you cut them loose and said "too bad, sign-up when you're old enough".

2. Cadets corps exist in places without a convenient reserve unit. You'd sour those kids against the military by cutting them loose years before they can join.

3. Most of the programs that draw people into the Cadets programme are only available when you're 16+. Things like international exchanges, power pilot, etc...

1) I think the amount you lose to choosing to carry on with Cadets is greater than the amount you would lose by cutting loose at 16.

2) If it isn’t a military program how would it sour them? At the end of the day we need to decide if we want a military themed daycare or if we want to actually use this program to help create troops. If it is the former I see no reason to carry on with it. If it is the latter then we should be aiming them towards the military whenever possible.

3) I don’t see a ton of value in those programs for the country if they aren’t going on to actually serve. One Reservist is more valuable than a 18 year old cadet with para wings who decides to never carry on into military service.

 

[daftandbarmy]

1) I think the amount you lose to choosing to carry on with Cadets is greater than the amount you would lose by cutting loose at 16.

2) If it isn’t a military program how would it sour them? At the end of the day we need to decide if we want a military themed daycare or if we want to actually use this program to help create troops. If it is the former I see no reason to carry on with it. If it is the latter then we should be aiming them towards the military whenever possible.

3) I don’t see a ton of value in those programs for the country if they aren’t going on to actually serve. One Reservist is more valuable than a 18 year old cadet with para wings who decides to never carry on into military service.

The US, and other countries, has no equivalent cadet program to ours and yet they seem to do OK with recruiting.

Just sayin'

 

[FJAG]

The US, and other countries, has no equivalent cadet program to ours and yet they seem to do OK with recruiting.

Just sayin'

The UK does. They do okay. They have some 38,000 army cadets, 13,000 sea cadets and 34,000 air cadets.

The US runs the Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps (JROTC) program in high schools with over 3,200 JROTC units of which over 30% join the military. The estimate is that there are more than 500,000 students enrolled in the various services of the JROTC.

I agree they aren't equivalent to ours. They appear better from what I can tell.

 

[Kirkhill]

1) I think the amount you lose to choosing to carry on with Cadets is greater than the amount you would lose by cutting loose at 16.

2) If it isn’t a military program how would it sour them? At the end of the day we need to decide if we want a military themed daycare or if we want to actually use this program to help create troops. If it is the former I see no reason to carry on with it. If it is the latter then we should be aiming them towards the military whenever possible.

3) I don’t see a ton of value in those programs for the country if they aren’t going on to actually serve. One Reservist is more valuable than a 18 year old cadet with para wings who decides to never carry on into military service.

Actually, if you think about it, the Baden-Powell's Scouts and Guides were training soldiers. They still teach firearms safety and shooting.

Their original uniform was expressly military in cut. As was the Boys' Brigade.

 

[Furniture]

1) I think the amount you lose to choosing to carry on with Cadets is greater than the amount you would lose by cutting loose at 16.

2) If it isn’t a military program how would it sour them? At the end of the day we need to decide if we want a military themed daycare or if we want to actually use this program to help create troops. If it is the former I see no reason to carry on with it. If it is the latter then we should be aiming them towards the military whenever possible.

3) I don’t see a ton of value in those programs for the country if they aren’t going on to actually serve. One Reservist is more valuable than a 18 year old cadet with para wings who decides to never carry on into military service.

You're losing sight of the fact Cadets doesn't primarily exist to put people in the P Res... If people switch over, it's because they wanted to join the type of unit available in the local area and they had their parents permission. Don't break a functional youth organization because the reserves can't fix themselves.

1) I think the amount you lose to choosing to carry on with Cadets is greater than the amount you would lose by cutting loose at 16.

How many people is an infantry reserve unit losing because someone wants to sail small boats or fly a glider? There are more types of cadets than just army cadets... Also, each army cadet corps is affiliated with a local reserve unit, so cadets get exposure to what the unit does. People sticking in cadets likely aren't interested in the local unit if they are staying in an unpaid youth organization over the reserves.

2) If it isn’t a military program how would it sour them? At the end of the day we need to decide if we want a military themed daycare or if we want to actually use this program to help create troops. If it is the former I see no reason to carry on with it. If it is the latter then we should be aiming them towards the military whenever possible.

I'm guessing you weren't a cadet, and haven't spoken to many former cadets. Many of us do go on to join the CAF, even if not in the "element" that we were cadets. Cadets doesn't exist to fix the reserves, and encouraging recruitment is way down on the priority list for the organization.

3) I don’t see a ton of value in those programs for the country if they aren’t going on to actually serve. One Reservist is more valuable than a 18 year old cadet with para wings who decides to never carry on into military service.

One cadet with para wings in the real world speaking positively about their experience in the cadet programme is worth 100x more than another disgruntled former P Res Pte who joined at 16 to become a ninja sniper, found out their vision category didn't qualify for the trade they wanted. then booted out of their P Res unit because the non-combat arms jobs were already full.

Cadets are the wrong tool to use to generate 16 year old recruits, who can't partake in the adult things being done around them... Make the reserves feel more useful and welcoming to 16 year old kids, and they will likely pick it over a military adjacent youth organization.

 

[Remius]

Actually, if you think about it, the Baden-Powell's Scouts and Guides were training soldiers. They still teach firearms safety and

Absolutely. And Baden Powell based scouting on his use of cadets during the Boer War.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Actually, if you think about it, the Baden-Powell's Scouts and Guides were training soldiers. They still teach firearms safety and shooting.

Their original uniform was expressly military in cut. As was the Boys' Brigade.

I did scouts, and many of the skills I learned there benefited me in my military service. It has also benefited me a fair bit in my civilian life. A excellent program which is unfortunately dying.

You're losing sight of the fact Cadets doesn't primarily exist to put people in the P Res... If people switch over, it's because they wanted to join the type of unit available in the local area and they had their parents permission. Don't break a functional youth organization because the reserves can't fix themselves.


How many people is an infantry reserve unit losing because someone wants to sail small boats or fly a glider? There are more types of cadets than just army cadets... Also, each army cadet corps is affiliated with a local reserve unit, so cadets get exposure to what the unit does. People sticking in cadets likely aren't interested in the local unit if they are staying in an unpaid youth organization over the reserves.

I'm guessing you weren't a cadet, and haven't spoken to many former cadets. Many of us do go on to join the CAF, even if not in the "element" that we were cadets. Cadets doesn't exist to fix the reserves, and encouraging recruitment is way down on the priority list for the organization.


One cadet with para wings in the real world speaking positively about their experience in the cadet programme is worth 100x more than another disgruntled former P Res Pte who joined at 16 to become a ninja sniper, found out their vision category didn't qualify for the trade they wanted. then booted out of their P Res unit because the non-combat arms jobs were already full.

Cadets are the wrong tool to use to generate 16 year old recruits, who can't partake in the adult things being done around them... Make the reserves feel more useful and welcoming to 16 year old kids, and they will likely pick it over a military adjacent youth organization.

Your right it doesn’t exist to primarily put people in the Reserves, my question is why does it exist then?

It’s a functional youth program because the government completely pays, funds, and operates it. Give any other program a similar situation and it would be very successful as well.

My point is if it isn’t doing a particularly great job generating soldiers (or sailors or whatever, I am using this as a generic name for a CAF members) and has slowly over time been watered down from the original intent (which would have been to generate soldiers) why should the tax payers fund it in the first place? Just because we always have?

We spend over 300m a year on this program, what returns is being provided to justify it?

 

[Furniture]

I did scouts, and many of the skills I learned there benefited me in my military service. It has also benefited me a fair bit in my civilian life. A excellent program which is unfortunately dying.

Your right it doesn’t exist to primarily put people in the Reserves, my question is why does it exist then?

It’s a functional youth program because the government completely pays, funds, and operates it. Give any other program a similar situation and it would be very successful as well.

My point is if it isn’t doing a particularly great job generating soldiers (or sailors or whatever, I am using this as a generic name for a CAF members) and has slowly over time been watered down from the original intent (which would have been to generate soldiers) why should the tax payers fund it in the first place? Just because we always have?

We spend over 300m a year on this program, what returns is being provided to justify it?

Your two replies in this post seem like they were written by different people.

The bolded white part is the justification for the question bolded in yellow...

The cadet programme is a free youth programme like scouts that is more widely geographically and economically available. There is no buying uniforms, or paying for camps, but you learn the same things. It is building better citizens, and better CAF leaders.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Your two replies in this post seem like they were written by different people.

The bolded white part is the justification for the question bolded in yellow...

The cadet programme is a free youth programme like scouts that is more widely geographically and economically available. There is no buying uniforms, or paying for camps, but you learn the same things. It is building better citizens, and better CAF leaders.

So one is taxpayer funded and run and one is expected to survive off of their own funds? Scouts also ends before 16.

To me Cadets needs to pick a lane, either its a youth program (which to me youth is generally 16 or under) or it is a pipeline for recruitment.

If it is just a youth program then maybe we shouldn’t fund it. If it is the pipeline for recruitment then we should focus on making it easier to recruit from it.

 

[Kilted]

Alternatively why do we keep Cadets until they are 18? Why not end the program when they turn 16 and have them branch into the Reserves if they wish to keep going?

Basically keep it as it is for younger cadets (basically a bit more military-esque ‘scouts’) but at 16 they can choose to get out or join up.

If the point is to create a recruitment stream this would be more practical than having the Reserves competing with Cadets for troops.

I remember when I joined the military and was going through the training cycle at 17, the general attitude of those are my age towards 16+ cadets was fairly negative because "why are you in cadets when you could be in the military?"

I think that there should be a good conversation about how we are going to make the cadets a more effective recruiting tool. I think everyone at every level needs to remember that the cadets are a supporting function and not an enitey of its own, existing for its own purposes.

Unfortunately, a lot of what I have seen of the cadet program has almost seemed as if the cadets are their own world and that the rest of the military exists to support them, or at the very least that has been the attitude of some of the CIC officers I have run into. Before I go on, I should say that I have known a lot of very good CIC officers that are a great credit to the uniform they wear, but there have been a few that umm...well, we've all met one of those.

There should be a greater attempt to try and give more opportunities for cadets to have more exposure to the military and to a certain degree allow the military to have more exposure to cadets when they will not interfere with training or operations.

Now part of this has to do with the relationship between the Cadet Corps and their affiliated units, because this can significantly impact how much exposure the cadets have. It can ran all the way from brining cadets on exercises to the Cadet Corps showing up on their regular parade night that "the unit needs the space, go home" without any prior notice. I have seen both happen. There are of course times when building aren't available for cadets during their normal training times, but this should be communicated to them well in advance.

 

[Furniture]

So one is taxpayer funded and run and one is expected to survive off of their own funds? Scouts also ends before 16.

To me Cadets needs to pick a lane, either its a youth program (which to me youth is generally 16 or under) or it is a pipeline for recruitment.

If it is just a youth program then maybe we shouldn’t fund it. If it is the pipeline for recruitment then we should focus on making it easier to recruit from it.

Fortunately for the programme, you're not running it.

I'll say again, if the P Res was seen as more desirable than cadets, more cadets would switch over. Perhaps the P Res leadership should look into why the paid P Res can't attract more unpaid cadets before ruining an organization that is actively doing good across the country.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Fortunately for the programme, you're not running it.

I'll say again, if the P Res was seen as more desirable than cadets, more cadets would switch over. Perhaps the P Res leadership should look into why the paid P Res can't attract more unpaid cadets before ruining an organization that is actively doing good across the country.

Reducing the age limit to 16 isn’t ‘ruining’ the program it would be removing a conflict of interest between national defense and a youth program.

Wanting quantified outputs is important to me wishing to fund the program.

 

[Kilted]

Reducing the age limit to 16 isn’t ‘ruining’ the program it would be removing a conflict of interest between national defense and a youth program.

Wanting quantified outputs is important to me wishing to fund the program.

That's a very good. I mean, when I was a cadet, the most interaction I had with my future unit was a change of command parade that participated in. Although, before I did this, I was told by my cadet C-of-C to avoid all the members of the regiment "because they hate us." A conversation about acting professional probably would have been more effective.

There is also likely a large disparity between different cadet units about how much contact they have with the military, even if they are located in the same building.

Having more opertunities for Reg/PRES to contribute to cadet training would be very helpful, and once again I suspect that there is a large disparity between different cadet units to that regard.

Any analysis of the cadet program should likely start with the CIC recruitment and training. There should be a stronger focus on attracting parents of cadets to become CIC as opposed to those right out of the cadet program who could be better used anywhere else in the forces at their age.

I also think that their are some drawbacks to giving CIC officers commissions as this segregates them from the majority of the CAF. I would almost support creating a separate rank structure (similar to the US Warrant Officers) that would still have them subject to the CSD, allow them enough authority to prevent undo interference with their cadets, but still allow them to better interact with the rest of the forces. For example, if a Corporal sees them wearing their uniform like a bag of hammers, they can correct them, instead of them wondering around dressed incorrectly for all the world to see.

Or alternatively, have them earn the rank the same way other officers do with a university degree and completing the full BMOQ before CIC training.

 

[Kirkhill]

So Scouts and Guides to 16 with taxpayer support (hockey and soccer type tax credits?) and Cadets and Venturers for the 16 to 18 bracket with the Cadets tied to the Reserve pipeline? Jr Rangers a parallel system for the 12 to 18 in the remote areas (no change)?

I would still like to see an adult version for volunteers.

The Israeli Magen David Adom system also seems worth looking at.

 

[Kirkhill]

So Scouts and Guides to 16 with taxpayer support (hockey and soccer type tax credits?) and Cadets and Venturers for the 16 to 18 bracket with the Cadets tied to the Reserve pipeline? Jr Rangers a parallel system for the 12 to 18 in the remote areas (no change)?

I would still like to see an adult version for volunteers.

The Israeli Magen David Adom system also seems worth looking at.

Talking about Scouts et al.:

Somebody said something about giving him a youngster before he is 8 or so and he would give you the adult.

Maybe my time in Cubs explains why a section of six feels right to me.

 

[Kilted]

So Scouts and Guides to 16 with taxpayer support (hockey and soccer type tax credits?) and Cadets and Venturers for the 16 to 18 bracket with the Cadets tied to the Reserve pipeline? Jr Rangers a parallel system for the 12 to 18 in the remote areas (no change)?

I would still like to see an adult version for volunteers.

The Israeli Magen David Adom system also seems worth looking at.

Like a Canadian centric Adult volunteer organization? I know Scouting goes up to 25 or something like that.

There are plenty of opportunities for adults to volunteer. You have service clubs like Rotary, Lions, Optimist, etc. Although, these are generally international and have limited "citizenship" involvement.

If you want something for adults where they wear a uniform and have some type of civi involvement you could look at St John Ambulance who have a military style rank structure and alligence to the King via his role as Sovereign Head of the Order of St John. Depending on your involvement, you can actually end up doing some important things.

I'm not sure if this was along the lines of what you were looking for, but it was the best example I could think of other than joining something like the Monarchist League or the Orange Order both of course are not run by the government or recieve any type of government funding.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The UK does. They do okay. They have some 38,000 army cadets, 13,000 sea cadets and 34,000 air cadets.

The US runs the Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps (JROTC) program in high schools with over 3,200 JROTC units of which over 30% join the military. The estimate is that there are more than 500,000 students enrolled in the various services of the JROTC.

I agree they aren't equivalent to ours. They appear better from what I can tell.

The British have similar issues to our cadets, with pressures to avoid streaming them directly into the military. They even have two kinds of cadet corps: ACF and CCF. The Army Cadet Force is more like our cadets, with unit affiliated corps. The Combined Cadet Force corps are all embedded with schools, something we could never imagine happening here I would guess.

OTOH their Junior Soldier program is excellent, and recruits 16 year old 'school leavers' into a year long military training program that funnels graduates directly into adult recruit training when they hit 17 years of age.

The 'ROT-Cees' make no pretense about aligning students directly with military service and, even better, nicely align education with a military career.