Army Reserve Restructuring

[FJAG]

. . . drinking club with a slight camping problem

Brilliant.

 

[quadrapiper]

You're losing sight of the fact Cadets doesn't primarily exist to put people in the P Res... If people switch over, it's because they wanted to join the type of unit available in the local area and they had their parents permission. Don't break a functional youth organization because the reserves can't fix themselves.


How many people is an infantry reserve unit losing because someone wants to sail small boats or fly a glider? There are more types of cadets than just army cadets... Also, each army cadet corps is affiliated with a local reserve unit, so cadets get exposure to what the unit does. People sticking in cadets likely aren't interested in the local unit if they are staying in an unpaid youth organization over the reserves.

I'm guessing you weren't a cadet, and haven't spoken to many former cadets. Many of us do go on to join the CAF, even if not in the "element" that we were cadets. Cadets doesn't exist to fix the reserves, and encouraging recruitment is way down on the priority list for the organization.


One cadet with para wings in the real world speaking positively about their experience in the cadet programme is worth 100x more than another disgruntled former P Res Pte who joined at 16 to become a ninja sniper, found out their vision category didn't qualify for the trade they wanted. then booted out of their P Res unit because the non-combat arms jobs were already full.

Cadets are the wrong tool to use to generate 16 year old recruits, who can't partake in the adult things being done around them... Make the reserves feel more useful and welcoming to 16 year old kids, and they will likely pick it over a military adjacent youth organization.

One other note re: age of completion... 16-18 is when cadets are getting the bulk of their experience in leadership/staff/instructional roles. 12-15 is spent specifically under training, developing into leadership roles starting around 14. Both of these phases have value, and regardless of the training content, curtailing either time under training or time leading/delivering training will significantly weaken both the output (a hopefully more rounded/mature/CAF aware/good citizen 19 year old, whatever they go on to do) and the progam's internal quality: 16-18 year old cadets are the key instructor and leadership cadre for the juniors, if everything's going well, and the CIC and other adults are instructing/guiding/mentoring the senior cadets and dealing with the admin, planning, etc. world. YMMV per corps/squadron depending on demographics, fluky retention, etc.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Actually, if you think about it, the Baden-Powell's Scouts and Guides were training soldiers. They still teach firearms safety and shooting.

Their original uniform was expressly military in cut. As was the Boys' Brigade.

My daughter is now a Pathfinder and started in Sparkes. No firearms training has been taught, yet, by them.

 

[Seyek]

My daughter is now a Pathfinder and started in Sparkes. No firearms training has been taught, yet, by them.

Like any group, it's entirely dependent on the group's leadership and I don't know how it works for Sparkes. I did a quick check and shooting sports are still on the website (though only for scouts and up for firearms, cubs can do bows/slingshots/crossbows). I did beavers through scouts/junior scouter thing since we didn't have a venturer program but never did firearms. Did do potato cannons though which is apparently banned. From what I remember being out on the occasional weekend where there were also cadets it was more beneficial in terms of outdoor skills and general resilience. We were all camped out in improvised shelters on the regular, responsible for our own meal plans for weekend canoe trips, plenty of hiking which was great prep for rucking.

Even taught drill, tactics, and weapons handling if you consider capgun muskets at 1812 reenactments to be weapons handling.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Like any group, it's entirely dependent on the group's leadership and I don't know how it works for Sparkes. I did a quick check and shooting sports are still on the website (though only for scouts and up for firearms, cubs can do bows/slingshots/crossbows). I did beavers through scouts/junior scouter thing since we didn't have a venturer program but never did firearms. Did do potato cannons though which is apparently banned. From what I remember being out on the occasional weekend where there were also cadets it was more beneficial in terms of outdoor skills and general resilience. We were all camped out in improvised shelters on the regular, responsible for our own meal plans for weekend canoe trips, plenty of hiking which was great prep for rucking.

Even taught drill, tactics, and weapons handling if you consider capgun muskets at 1812 reenactments to be weapons handling.

This is a super dumb tangent we have gotten onto, but Scouts have almost no mandatory programming- it is largely up to the Scouts themselves (with adult guidance) to select the activities that interest them. Shooting sports are a permitted activity in the program, if a particular group chooses it. To say that Scouts Canada, in 2026, is paramilitary because of that is to stretch the word completely out of context.

 

[GR66]

One other note re: age of completion... 16-18 is when cadets are getting the bulk of their experience in leadership/staff/instructional roles. 12-15 is spent specifically under training, developing into leadership roles starting around 14. Both of these phases have value, and regardless of the training content, curtailing either time under training or time leading/delivering training will significantly weaken both the output (a hopefully more rounded/mature/CAF aware/good citizen 19 year old, whatever they go on to do) and the progam's internal quality: 16-18 year old cadets are the key instructor and leadership cadre for the juniors, if everything's going well, and the CIC and other adults are instructing/guiding/mentoring the senior cadets and dealing with the admin, planning, etc. world. YMMV per corps/squadron depending on demographics, fluky retention, etc.

I see no need to change the Cadet program. I think it's useful for general civic development in our youth as well as being military "adjacent" as a window into the CAF for those who might become interested. Diverting 16-18 year old cadets out of the program and into the Reserves would a) deprive both the older cadets of leadership opportunities and b) deprive younger cadets of youth mentors/role models. As previously noted you would also likely lose a significant portion due to parents not wanting to sign off on their children joining the military.

That's why I suggested a type of "Junior Reserve" program that could run in parallel with Cadets. Those 16-18 year old cadets (with parental approval) could join the program and take part in some elements of Reserve training/exercises with their parent unit in addition to their Cadet activities. You wouldn't need to automatically stream every cadet into this program. When the Junior Reservists are at Cadets talking about the cool stuff they are doing with their parent unit they will act as excellent recruiters for both their older peers that are not already part of the program or those younger cadets that might be interested when they are older.

Even if the majority of the Junior Reservists never end up joining the Reserves or Reg Force when they age out of Cadets it will at least add to the overall pool of the population that are familiar with and friendly to the CAF which is good politically (as well as providing a potential base of personnel with at least minimal military training should mobilization ever be required).

 

[Kirkhill]

1914 was just about the last year that Canada had a national defence plan that focused on defending the government's borders.

The United States of America in 1910 ....... 92,228, 496

Canada in 1911 .............7,191.624
City Population ...............1,298,413
Indigenous ....................... 105,611

East of the Lakehead .....5,471,023
West of the Lakehead ....1,720,601

Electors/Militia .............. 1,820,742

Authorized Non-Permanent Acttive Militia ........... 60,181
NPAM at Training Camp in 1912 ............................ 44,710
(Included Officers Authorized) ................................... 4,942


Rifle Associations, number and members

Military…………166………….24,903.
Civilian…………417………….23,884.
Total……………583…………..48,787.

Cadets ..........................44,000

Boy Scouts ...................14,477


Permanent Force .............3,118
(Included Officers) ..............202

RNWMP .............................. 793

Arsenal

~40,000x Lee Metford / Lee Enfield rifles
12,000x Ross rifles
43x Machine Guns

32x 13-Pdrs in 8 Btys of Horse Artillery (2 PAM)
216x 18-Pdrs in 54 Btys of Field Artillery (0 PAM)
48x 4.5" Howitzers in 12 Btys of Field Artillery (0 PAM)
~52x 4.7" QF Guns in 13 Btys of Garrison Artillery
~32x BL 60-Pdrs (5") in 8 Btys of Heavy and Siege Artillery

Garrison artillery had a wide range of modern and vintage pieces but the core element seems to have been the 4.7" QF gun for coastal defence

Force Structure

6 Divisions and one Division Equivalent

Division 1 - London
Division 2 - Toronto
Division 3 - Kingston/Ottawa
Division 4 - Montreal
Division 5 - Quebec
Division 6 - Halifax
(Division 7) - The West

The West comprised

3 Military Districts and one District Equivalent

Military District 10 - Winnipeg
Military District 11 - Esquimalt
(Military District 12) - Regina
Miltary District 13 - Calgary

(The RNWMP was depoted in the putative MD 12 in Regina)

Each Division and each district had its own regiment of horse and brigade of infantry. The size of those elements, number of squadrons and battalions varied depending on local circumstances.

The field force to be generated by these divisions and districts comprised

7 mobile brigades of light horse
23 brigades of infantry


The 7 mobile brigades of light horse were complete with a horse artillery battery, an ammunition column, a service company, a field ambulance, a troop of engineers and a signal section with a detachment of wireless telegraph engineers.

There were the elements of an 8th in Winnipeg, formed around the Lord Strathcona's Horse's two squadrons of the PAM.

The 23 infantry brigades were collections of rifle companies with no supporting elements. There were typically 4 battalions in a brigade and 8 companies in each battalion. The battalions could be split into two half-battalions under its two Majors. The unit was commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel assisted by a staff trained Captain as Adjutant. A typical battalion had and authorized strength of about 540 all ranks.

.....

Summary

7,300,000 people in 10,000,000 km2 with 0.03% of it described in government survey maps of the day
1,800,000 people authorized to vote and with that came the responsibility of being in the Militia.
60,000 of those electors were required to meet the defence needs of the government
45,000 of those required showed up for training
45,000 adults joined rifle associations
45,000 high school and university age students joined the Cadets (initiated in 1862 and formed in 1879)
15,000 high school age students joined the Boy Scouts since 1908

23 Brigades of Infantry Rifle Companies
7 Mobile Brigades of Light Horse
3 Fortresses

~40,000x Lee Metford / Lee Enfield rifles
12,000x Ross rifles
43x Machine Guns

32x 13-Pdrs in 8 Btys of Horse Artillery (2 PAM)
216x 18-Pdrs in 54 Btys of Field Artillery (0 PAM)
48x 4.5" Howitzers in 12 Btys of Field Artillery (0 PAM)
~52x 4.7" QF Guns in 13 Btys of Garrison Artillery
~32x BL 60-Pdrs (5") in 8 Btys of Heavy and Siege Artillery

....

Could we at least match that effort in absolute terms?

In scaled terms we would be looking at 300,000 people, with 250,000 rifles and 1320 gun-howitzers.

And 250,000 rifle enthusiasts, 250,000 Cadets in high school and 70,000 Boy Scouts

Oh yeah - and 35 Mobile Brigade Groups and 115 Brigades of Rifle Companies.

 

[Kirkhill]

Like a Canadian centric Adult volunteer organization? I know Scouting goes up to 25 or something like that.

There are plenty of opportunities for adults to volunteer. You have service clubs like Rotary, Lions, Optimist, etc. Although, these are generally international and have limited "citizenship" involvement.

If you want something for adults where they wear a uniform and have some type of civi involvement you could look at St John Ambulance who have a military style rank structure and alligence to the King via his role as Sovereign Head of the Order of St John. Depending on your involvement, you can actually end up doing some important things.

I'm not sure if this was along the lines of what you were looking for, but it was the best example I could think of other than joining something like the Monarchist League or the Orange Order both of course are not run by the government or recieve any type of government funding.

I am looking for something more focused. Something that involves a structure and a chain of command with a means of tracking training and availability.

Something like St John Ambulance for the security and other emergency/civil-defence services would work. Preferably under federal government auspices but local control.

We have enough dance troupes in funny hats.

 

[Kirkhill]

23rd Alberta Rangers (Light Horse)

Squadrons in

Claresholm (settled by US Norwegians from North Dakota 1902) - 1911 population of 809
Magrath (settled by US Mormons from Utah 1899) - 1911 population of 995
Cardston (settled by US Mormons Utah1887) - 1911 population of 1207
Pincher Creek (1878 NWMP horse ranch and out post settled from 1883) - 1911 population of 1200

I am thinking that a combination of recent experience with a rising in Canada, 1885, a high percentage of US expats/refugees with experience of posses and militias, and ongoing labour, native, settler and revolutionary violence from south of the Rio Grande to Vancouver Island coal mines probably encouraged the locals to establish "legitimate" posses under the auspices of the Canadian government's Militia and the watchful eye of the RNWMP.

Cardston and Pincher Creek had RNWMP dets of 3 each and Claresholm had a det of 2. Magrath had no mounties but adjacent Stafford and Warner each had 1 and Lethbridge had the K Division HQ had a det of 21. Lethbridge was also home to the Independent 25th Field Battery (presumably 4x 18-Pdrs). And the RCA were useful for managing public order issues as shown by the 5th Company Canadian Garrison Artillery who missed summer camp because of some obstreperous BC coal miners on Vancouver Island.

Lethbridge - (settled by whisky traders, coal miners and railroad workers from 1869) - 1911 population of 9,242
Stirling (settled by US Mormons from Utah 1899) - 1911 population unknown
Warner - (settled by US Mormons from Utah from 1890) - 1913 population of 170

Local heros include Billy Miner

Bill Miner - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Virtual Saskatchewan - The Infamous Sam Kelley

Sam Kelley, alias Charles (Red) Nelson, was an outlaw in the Big Muddy.

www.virtualsk.com

Unsettled settlers might describe the locals.

Those Claresholm folk from North Dakota - Wounded Knee Massacre 1890
The Mormons from Utah - the last violence against Mormons was in Tennesse in 1884 - they had got used to protecting themselves

 

[Kilted]

I am looking for something more focused. Something that involves a structure and a chain of command with a means of tracking training and availability.

Something like St John Ambulance for the security and other emergency/civil-defence services would work. Preferably under federal government auspices but local control.

We have enough dance troupes in funny hats.

Clearly you need to join these guys:

Legion of Frontiersmen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They do apparently fill some volunteers roles in the UK, but their existence in Canada is kind of without purpose.

 

[foresterab]

23rd Alberta Rangers (Light Horse)

Squadrons in

Claresholm (settled by US Norwegians from North Dakota 1902) - 1911 population of 809
Magrath (settled by US Mormons from Utah 1899) - 1911 population of 995
Cardston (settled by US Mormons Utah1887) - 1911 population of 1207
Pincher Creek (1878 NWMP horse ranch and out post settled from 1883) - 1911 population of 1200

I am thinking that a combination of recent experience with a rising in Canada, 1885, a high percentage of US expats/refugees with experience of posses and militias, and ongoing labour, native, settler and revolutionary violence from south of the Rio Grande to Vancouver Island coal mines probably encouraged the locals to establish "legitimate" posses under the auspices of the Canadian government's Militia and the watchful eye of the RNWMP.

Cardston and Pincher Creek had RNWMP dets of 3 each and Claresholm had a det of 2. Magrath had no mounties but adjacent Stafford and Warner each had 1 and Lethbridge had the K Division HQ had a det of 21. Lethbridge was also home to the Independent 25th Field Battery (presumably 4x 18-Pdrs). And the RCA were useful for managing public order issues as shown by the 5th Company Canadian Garrison Artillery who missed summer camp because of some obstreperous BC coal miners on Vancouver Island.

Lethbridge - (settled by whisky traders, coal miners and railroad workers from 1869) - 1911 population of 9,242
Stirling (settled by US Mormons from Utah 1899) - 1911 population unknown
Warner - (settled by US Mormons from Utah from 1890) - 1913 population of 170

Local heros include Billy Miner

Bill Miner - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Virtual Saskatchewan - The Infamous Sam Kelley

Sam Kelley, alias Charles (Red) Nelson, was an outlaw in the Big Muddy.

www.virtualsk.com

Unsettled settlers might describe the locals.

Those Claresholm folk from North Dakota - Wounded Knee Massacre 1890
The Mormons from Utah - the last violence against Mormons was in Tennesse in 1884 - they had got used to protecting themselves

One thing that makes me consider history more though is the demographics around age of eligible population and societies self imposed limits on membership to units.

In much of the west there was a population tilt towards single young men...many from England...who in turn joined up at much higher rates than married men/family men. There was still a huge enlistment rate overall - and some of which was tied to momentum - but that doesn't necessarily match our age demographics today.

Second point is how many militia soldiers were 16 or 17 years of age. Or 17 upon enlistment but wink were 18 and had a years experience. Likewise 40 year old's seem to be a much higher enrollment rate than what I assume is the CAF target audience today.

For context in Canada the Military Service Act of 1917 (aka the draft) included all males between 20 and 45. England for comparison started with ages 18-41 being drafted in 1916 and raised the upper age to 51 in 1918.

The Ukraine today has a draft age of 25-60...with the lower bracket moved down from age 27. This is in response to the low numbers of men in the 18-15 age bracket relative to other ages.

 

[foresterab]

Clearly you need to join these guys:

Legion of Frontiersmen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They do apparently fill some volunteers roles in the UK, but their existence in Canada is kind of without purpose.

Well...they did form one CEF battalion way back...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/210th_Battalion_(Frontiersmen),_CEF

 

[Kilted]

Well...they did form one CEF battalion way back...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/210th_Battalion_(Frontiersmen),_CEF

True, and if they could raise a Battalion in the current day, they would be the most effective recruiting tool in the country.

 

[Kirkhill]

Clearly you need to join these guys:

Legion of Frontiersmen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They do apparently fill some volunteers roles in the UK, but their existence in Canada is kind of without purpose.

Canadian version

Corps of Guides

Corps of Guides (Canada) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And keep at it. Keep telling yourselves you have got it covered and don't need any help.

 

[Kilted]

Canadian version

Corps of Guides

Corps of Guides (Canada) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And keep at it. Keep telling yourselves you have got it covered and don't need any help.

They were an actual military formation.