Ask The CSE Chief

[gcclarke]

Question for the Chief:

I'm a NCS Eng officer in training, in middle of NETPO at the moment. With FELEX going on and the restructuring of the NCM trades in the CSE department, I was wondering if and how the officer trade will be affected. I'd imagine quite minimally since the job of the department as aen whole should remain the same; but th what do I know?

Also with the new equipment coming on the ships, is what I learn at CFNES going to be obselete as soon as I graduate? What changes are they making / have they made to the courses at CFNES in response to FELEX?

Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents here.

I anticipate very direct effect on our trade, although depending on how the plan actually goes, dealing with personnel shortages will either become easier or harder, as well as overseeing training in the department. Although it might give someone the "good idea" to change the department name to Weapons Engineering Department, and changing us to Weapons Engineering Officers might follow. Personally, I wouldn't be terribly opposed to the notion.

As for the stuff you're learning at CFNES, that's pretty much entirely theory. If anything, FELEX will make it more relevant, as learning about stuff like 3D Phased-Array Radars is a bit more useful when we might actually have them. If during your Phase VI, the point when you get to ship right after CFNES, that you learn all the specifics of the various ship systems. Some of them may be obsolete soon after you learn them. But again, half of the reason they make you do it before they'll make you an Lt(N) is to prove you are capable of learning what is needed, not just so you'll have the knowledge. After all, someone can do their Phase VI on a destroyer, and then not step foot aboard one ever again.

 

[RickDevlieger]

For GuitarDean,

gcclarke has pretty much said it. Irregardless of what you are taught in school, you can only do your practical phase on stuff that you actually have access to. Principles learned there can be applied to other stuff as it arrives on board, or you go to a ship with it. As a CSE Officer, you ar.e responsible for the department (onboard Ship at least). You privide leadership, direction and set priorities to support the CO's priorities and intent. And wear the CO's wrath when something can't be fixed, even though it may be no fault of your dept or techs.

So as far as the equipment that you train on being obsolete by the time you complete training, get used to it. I started out changing vacuum tubes and aligning a computer consisting of vacuum tube amplifiers and synchro/servos. We have long since abandoned training people to fix every component of every piece of equipment they can expect to see. We just can't look that far into the future anymore. Instead we now expect techs do adapt their background knowledge and skill we provide to whatever equipment may be in front of them. Your department should have enough experts among them to maintain and repair the combat systems on board and execute those work arounds that may be required.You Sir, will need to know what the capabilities and limitations are of everything on your ship, possible work arounds and options if something isn't working and provide that advice to Command. It may not seem like much when it is said that way, but there is a lot to it and administering your department with shortages, changing missions etc is a whole new level of complexity.

For CDBoych
I have passed your question on to someone who is way more familiar with the working of the SEP than I am. It is a busy time of the year, so it may be a few more days before I get an answer.

 

[Benji88]

Well, FELEX won't happen overnight, so some of the CPF's are going to be sailing with the old equipment for several years while the other ships each go through the refit.

As for the SEP program, you'll need to get a PLAR done (if it hasn't been already) to determine what discrepancies there are - if any - between your civvie course and the courses at CFNES. I took an electronics course as a civvie from a school registered under the SEP program, and the PLAR done through my recruiting centre was not acurate; it took a bit of doing to get that all sorted out at CFNES. You may run into a similar problem, as SEP/Skilled/semi-skilled students are a bit of a glitch in the system it seems.

However, chances are pretty good that you'll be loaded on a "bridging" course to get you up to speed on the theory your civvie course didn't cover. After that you'll have the W Eng tech equipment phase at CFNES before being posted to a ship for further training. NETP may happen before or after your courses at CFNES depending on the respective schedules.

 

[RickDevlieger]

For CDBoych

Benji has most of the answer, but I will add that the bridging courses will soon be conducted in both Esquimalt and Halifax. You should be asked sometime in the near future which coast you would prefer to do your career on. That however is only a consideration for your Career Manager, as he has to put people where they are needed the most. If your preference meets the requirement, bonus, if not, you will have a decision to make on completion of your obligatory service. I also suspect that the duration of the bridging courses will decrease as well.

SEP is a recruiting attraction and not the "normal" way to enter the CF. It is likely to become more common in the future if we continue to have success with it, and normal recruiting for technical trades continues to have shortfalls. Currently recruiting is doing very well, but as the economy improves and technical skills become more in demand in civilian industry, SEP will be one of the strategies used by the Navy to meet their manning requirements.

 

[CDBoych]

I appreciate the helpful responses!  Getting a job in the military is extremely exciting, but they don't warn you about two things: the paperwork and the fact that sometimes, you just can't get the answers you want when you want them. 

That alleviates some of my worries, and leaves me with mostly just the timeline to wonder about.

Joining through SEP is certainly an interesting experience, it not being the normal way to go.  While it has been relatively straight-forward so far, there have been a few bumps in the road, mostly in the procedure for dealing with us SEP kiddos, and with some of us being so far from a base.  I'm sure it will all get worked out as more applicants go through the program.  So far, there are two other students at the same college as I am attending who have taken the opportunity; I definitely hope to see it become more of a draw for technical tradespeople in the future.

Thanks again!

 

[turtlerace79]

Does anyone know if there is an Occupational Profile for the new WET career? I have Googled and searched but cannot seem to find any proof that the NET & NWT trades will be merged (even though in my heart of hearts I know that they will be united in September).
Also, what does QSP stand for?

 

[Navalsnpr]

Does anyone know if there is an Occupational Profile for the new WET career? I have Googled and searched but cannot seem to find any proof that the NET & NWT trades will be merged (even though in my heart of hearts I know that they will be united in September).
Also, what does QSP stand for?

Qualification Standard Plan.  The Army has 2 documents (Qualification Standard & Training Plan), whereas the Navy combined them into one document.

Check out CFNES's CSE InTRAnet site (http://halifax.mil.ca) and there should be info on the Standards sub-page

 

[franciscorivera]

Does anyone know if there is an Occupational Profile for the new WET career? I have Googled and searched but cannot seem to find any proof that the NET & NWT trades will be merged (even though in my heart of hearts I know that they will be united in September).

I havent found anything in writing yet and dont expect them to if its not being implemented until september
Here is a useful paragraph you should read if you havent already

Yes it is happening. As of Sept, there will be no such thing as an NET or an NWT. Anyone who isn't already QL5 (qualification level) qualified by that point will become one of the "generic" techs, to be selected for further trades training and specialization down the line. Everyone else should already know what type they'll be once the change comes along.

There are some rather significant changes that'll happen to both the training, and what types of kit people will be managing. For example, the new Weapons Eng Tech (Sonar) will also be dealing with the Torpedos, and all aspects of the Towed Array Sonar and the Nixie (Acoustic / Magnetic Torpedo Countermeasures), whereas previously they focused on the electronics (dry end) didn't maintain the hydraulic handling devices. Most current NWTs will likely end up as either an Armament Technician or a Fire Control Technician, Armament guys will keep the main gun and the CIWS along with a few others, but all missiles will be the Fire Control Techs, along with the fire control radars.

As for what you can expect starting out, you'll initially get a much broader experience when you first do your trades training and then get to ship. You'll touch on aspects of all 5 flavours of tech, and when the time comes to pick which ones you might like to be, you can do so with a better understanding of what the job actually entails than you would at the recruiting centre. Conversely, while your experience will be broader, it will also by necessity be shallower. You won't gain as thorough of an understanding of any particular kit as I would currently expect any of our apprentices to have now.

As has been discussed above, there will likely be a fair amount of growing pains implementing this change. I'm not entirely convinced it's the right move, but at the very least I do think it'll help smooth out much of the imbalances between the 4 current trades, with regards to both manning levels, and other things such as ship / shore ratios.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 03:57:05 by gcclarke »

 

[grendel]

Chief, would you be able to enlighten myself and others of the current plan for NCSTTP QL4 trained and untrained personnel

The message which was released on May 11, 2011 in regards to the implementation the W Eng. tech. training did not have a section to accommodate NCSTTP personnel who were currently working on their QL4 OJT. Some might believe they would fall under section E:
{Message number can be forwarded if need be, but sure you can find the para's I'm referring to}
However, I believe a section for NCSTTP personnel which have already completed QL5 academics should have been provided. People who chose the opportunity to do academics prior to their QL4 training are being told to complete at least 12 months doing W Eng Maintainer OJPR while their peers (CFNES) who started their training at the same time are able to finish the old QL5 academics and move on to the new W Eng tech system applications without doing a W Eng maintainer package. No consideration that NCSTTP personnel are further ahead in training (both QL4 OJT and QL5 academics completed) than the personnel currently on QL5 academics course 115673 and 115672. See section G.

Because of the order which qualifications were completed, NCSTTP personnel are being denied the same opportunity. Perhaps a later cut off date to be loaded on a new W Eng tech system applications course for NCSTTP currently working on their QL4 should be added.

 

[Navalsnpr]

If your situation does not fall within the instructions as indicated in the released message, then you should engage your divisional system at CFNES DET ST.JOHN'S or where ever you are currently posted to so that the answer can be received officially through proper channels. Your divisional system will engage the MOSID manager in Ottawa who will answer the question and advise the coasts of the issue and what the remedy is. You are probably not the only person in this situation and with a huge trade re-alignment as this is there is always going to be a few details that may have been over looked.

 

[RickDevlieger]

For grendel, and anyone else in his situation

Here is the to your question about NCSTTP QL4 personnel from the W Eng Tech Occupation Manager:

There was consideration given to NCSTTPs however we had to have a cutoff for legacy training. The W Eng Tech Maintainer OJPR is considered to be very important training so well worthwhile doing. At the end and on successful completion of the board, spec pay is granted. If we started a new course in the fall you may not have finished any earlier to get spec pay as you would have to have either the W Eng Maintainer qual or a sub occ qual.
W Eng tech is the largest change to Naval Personnel structure since 1985. Some folks will be caught in the middle however we have tried to minimize this.


This is probably not the answer you would have liked, but consider that you will have less at sea experience compared with your non-NCSTTP counterparts and here is an opportunity to make up that deficit.

 

[grendel]

Hello again Chief,

Very true that it was not the answer that I was looking for, but it is an answer nonetheless.  Unfortunately it is a small minortiy of NCSTTP's, so finding an answer was harder than expected, but it is nice to know in the end that a section was not forgotten.  Thanks for your time once again.

 

[GreenIsGood]

Hi All,

I have a few questions about the NCS Eng position that I haven't been able to find answers to, and I'm hoping you folks could answer them:

1. On average, how many years does a NCS Eng have to work on a ship (including training phases two and three) before they're eligible for R&D opportunities ?

2. Does the R&D involve much software development ?

3. Where are the R&D opportunities located ?

4. On average, how much of a NCS Eng's time is spent on management work (e.g. administration and personnel management, etc.) and how much on engineering work (e.g. design, dealing with technical issues, etc.) ?

5. On average, how much of a NCS Eng's time is spent interacting with others and how much is spent working alone ?

6. The occupation promo video states that NCS Engs design weapons technologies. Is that only when they're working at an R&D position or will they do such designing before then ?


Thanks !

 

[gcclarke]

Hi All,

I have a few questions about the NCS Eng position that I haven't been able to find answers to, and I'm hoping you folks could answer them:

1. On average, how many years does a NCS Eng have to work on a ship (including training phases two and three) before they're eligible for R&D opportunities ?

2. Does the R&D involve much software development ?

3. Where are the R&D opportunities located ?

4. On average, how much of a NCS Eng's time is spent on management work (e.g. administration and personnel management, etc.) and how much on engineering work (e.g. design, dealing with technical issues, etc.) ?

5. On average, how much of a NCS Eng's time is spent interacting with others and how much is spent working alone ?

6. The occupation promo video states that NCS Engs design weapons technologies. Is that only when they're working at an R&D position or will they do such designing before then ?


Thanks !

1: You could initially be qualified for a position in R&D upon completion of your Phase VI board and subsequent promotion to Lt(N). So after 1 year on ship. It might be a better idea to wait until after you finish your AHOD board however, so after 2 years on ship. For a DEO applicatant without too much waiting time between courses, this would usually be around the 3.5 or 4.5 years in mark.

2: Not that I'm aware of.

3: There are a few (and I mean very few) positions for NCSEOs at the Defence Research & Development Centres, either the detatchments in Halifax, Quebec City, or Ottawa. Right now I see 1 Lt(N) & LCdr Position in Ottawa, 1 Lt(N) & LCdr position in Halifax, and a LCdr position in Quebec City. The kicker is that these are not considered to be high priority positions to be filled by the career manager. Currently all of these positions other than the two in Halifax are vacant. As a department, we don't do all that much of our own R&D, and very little of that is done by members in uniform. I don't think it'd be likely for any one person to get more than a few years total in any of these positions.

4: Probably about 97 - 100% / 3 - 0%. Or something different I guess, depending upon exactly what you mean by "dealing with technical issues".

5: That varies greatly depending on the leadership style of the person in question. Some people manage via laptop. Others perform leadership by walking around. Just keep in mind that you're a sailor first, an officer 2nd, and an engineer 3rd.

6: While a few ship systems are designed in house, the vast majority are designed by whichever defence (sub)contractor happens to win the bid for a new class of ship or upgrade.

I'll be completely frank. If you want to be working in R&D for the military, apply to DRDC as a civilian. If you want to be designing weapon systems, apply to Boeing, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, or some other defence contractor. You will be unlikely to be able to spend more than a small portion of your time in the uniform doing R&D work.

 

[GreenIsGood]

Thanks for your answers and advice ! They were very helpful.