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17thRecceSgt
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Teddy Ruxpin said:
An excellent point!
At the unit awaiting the BMQ - lowest of the low?
- Thread starter Crush
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An excellent point!
daftandbarmy
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I've had the dubious pleasure of being an officer cadet in two different armies, and always wondered why we treated ours with such disdain in comparison (or maybe I just deserved it!). Oh well, all the more incentive to get on with your career quickly ...
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17thRecceSgt
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I dunno. Maybe it is the "you will be leading me and my/our/the countries soldiers/sailors/airmen and air women and we want to make sure you can handle anything so let's start with your ability to know you know nothing so you can learn to lean on, trust and work with the troops, Jnr NCOs, Snr NCOs and WOs we already have" mentality...
I really have no idea. So..expect this post to be ignored or deleted.
I don't think it really that different from a Pte(R) who has no TI or experience..only...they won't be leading...so...
I hear the Mods again saying "SUM UP MRM".
;D
I really have no idea. So..expect this post to be ignored or deleted.
I don't think it really that different from a Pte(R) who has no TI or experience..only...they won't be leading...so...
I hear the Mods again saying "SUM UP MRM".
;D
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Mud Recce Man said:
Oh, now please explain how treating OCdts with disdain teaches them to trust you. I am not a psychologist, nor do I play one on TV, but is seems to me it would have the opposite effect.
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Mud Recce Man said:
That is not how to treat an OCdt. Sure, they know "nothing", but someone, somewhere, thinks that they might have "the Right Stuff". It's not yet proven (that's why they are still OCdts!), and they get trained before they get to command. If they don't, they wash out (maybe "juarez" out?) >
Yes, they have to learn to listen to their NCOs and WOs, but in the end, it is they (as 2Lts and up) who will have the final say. As I've instructed my candidates on Infantry Officer Development Period 1.1 (aka "Phase III" or "Dismounted Platoon Commander"), the Pl Comd and the Pl 2IC are a team. The Command Team. If they have disagreements, which they will, they will sort them out in the absence of the Sect Comds and on down, in order to project a unified front. If not, the effects will be terminal on the platoon, for it is the troops who in the end will suffer.
In my humble opinion, there are two disconnects with the treat officer cadets like crap school of thought. The first is that we often find officers cadets and direct entry officers undergoing the same training in the same troop or platoon at the same time. This, of course, means that they are at the same level of competence and knowledge and have the same opportunity to pass or fail. Why should one group be treated differently from the others?
The second is that, magically, one day the officer cadets suddenly are commissioned and are expected to be take charge, competent and confident (inexperienced) young officers. How the heck do we infuse them with these officer-like qualities if they are constantly being told that they are the lowest of the low and treated like scum?
The second is that, magically, one day the officer cadets suddenly are commissioned and are expected to be take charge, competent and confident (inexperienced) young officers. How the heck do we infuse them with these officer-like qualities if they are constantly being told that they are the lowest of the low and treated like scum?
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OK OK, I know this thread is just dragging on, so mods feel free to delete.
But I want to point out something from my experience.
Back when I was doing IAP, I was a fresh, wet behind the ears civvy (almost still am ;D), who was getting an introduction to the military life.
Day in day out, we were given the military routine, which I loved and thrived on. I was developing an intense love for the military way of life (which I think I have developed now), until one day a MCpl. came into our platoon as a section commander.
He was different than the Sgt.'s, whom were firm but still treated us with respect, and whom I looked up to with the highest respect. I trusted my Sgt.'s and my WO, no matter how tough the times got, because they were professional, respectable but could still carry on their business.
It seemed as though the MCpl. had something to prove, he wanted to make sure that we felt like the scum of the earth. He let us know day in and day out that we were worthless beings, using up the uniform of a Pte(R) he could train. He reminded us constantly that we did not deserve the food we ate everyday.
It was from this experience I developed a short-lasting "hate" for MCpl.'s. I met more MCpl.'s as the courses went on, whom seemed to share varying degrees of the same attitude.
Of course, I outgrew this attitude as I met many, many more MCpl.'s who were courteous and treated everyone with respect.
The question is, how many OCdt.'s still feel a little resentment?
The Sgt.'s on my course realized the problem, and I think they might have even tried to talk to him in private. They told us to just wait until we were his boss.
It shouldn't be this way. We need to start forming tight bonds with our NCO's, as we are nothing without them. This way of training, and generally regarding them, such as ParaMedTech's attitude, does not allow the fullest development of OCdt.'s.
I mean, guys, OCdt.'s will be leading some of you shortly.
Wouldn't you rather treat them nicely now, so they aren't idiots when they become leaders?
Afterall, monkey see, monkey do.
But I want to point out something from my experience.
Back when I was doing IAP, I was a fresh, wet behind the ears civvy (almost still am ;D), who was getting an introduction to the military life.
Day in day out, we were given the military routine, which I loved and thrived on. I was developing an intense love for the military way of life (which I think I have developed now), until one day a MCpl. came into our platoon as a section commander.
He was different than the Sgt.'s, whom were firm but still treated us with respect, and whom I looked up to with the highest respect. I trusted my Sgt.'s and my WO, no matter how tough the times got, because they were professional, respectable but could still carry on their business.
It seemed as though the MCpl. had something to prove, he wanted to make sure that we felt like the scum of the earth. He let us know day in and day out that we were worthless beings, using up the uniform of a Pte(R) he could train. He reminded us constantly that we did not deserve the food we ate everyday.
It was from this experience I developed a short-lasting "hate" for MCpl.'s. I met more MCpl.'s as the courses went on, whom seemed to share varying degrees of the same attitude.
Of course, I outgrew this attitude as I met many, many more MCpl.'s who were courteous and treated everyone with respect.
The question is, how many OCdt.'s still feel a little resentment?
The Sgt.'s on my course realized the problem, and I think they might have even tried to talk to him in private. They told us to just wait until we were his boss.
It shouldn't be this way. We need to start forming tight bonds with our NCO's, as we are nothing without them. This way of training, and generally regarding them, such as ParaMedTech's attitude, does not allow the fullest development of OCdt.'s.
I mean, guys, OCdt.'s will be leading some of you shortly.
Wouldn't you rather treat them nicely now, so they aren't idiots when they become leaders?
Afterall, monkey see, monkey do.
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Quag you obviously ran into someone suffering "small man syndrom", this happens sometimes. But to then imply that MCpls were untrustworthy begs the question, "Were the Sgts not once MCpls?"
I have met officers I would follow to the grave and others I wouldn't follow to an outhouse, so EVERY rank has both good and bad within it. One of the best officers I worked for used to say that he would listen to what WO AND the Sect Comds had to say, but not always implement their ideas, because ultimately the final decision was his to make.
I have met officers I would follow to the grave and others I wouldn't follow to an outhouse, so EVERY rank has both good and bad within it. One of the best officers I worked for used to say that he would listen to what WO AND the Sect Comds had to say, but not always implement their ideas, because ultimately the final decision was his to make.
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17thRecceSgt
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Michael O'Leary said:
Thats my point I think I wrote what I meant to say wrong...I was talking about the good training, where they learn that the NCOs are good guys...did it not come out that way?
I don't, myself, see the value in friggin them around. I worked on some of the Pz 3 courses and never saw the training value in what some of the DS did/said/thought...
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17thRecceSgt
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von Garvin said:That is not how to treat an OCdt. Sure, they know "nothing", but someone, somewhere, thinks that they might have "the Right Stuff". It's not yet proven (that's why they are still OCdts!), and they get trained before they get to command. If they don't, they wash out (maybe "juarez" out?) >
Yes, they have to learn to listen to their NCOs and WOs, but in the end, it is they (as 2Lts and up) who will have the final say. As I've instructed my candidates on Infantry Officer Development Period 1.1 (aka "Phase III" or "Dismounted Platoon Commander"), the Pl Comd and the Pl 2IC are a team. The Command Team. If they have disagreements, which they will, they will sort them out in the absence of the Sect Comds and on down, in order to project a unified front. If not, the effects will be terminal on the platoon, for it is the troops who in the end will suffer.
Hey...whoa! I simply pointed out a mentality I have seen lots of...but not one I necessarily think is the best way, or even agree with for that matter...
My thinks I missed the target on that post...my bad.
I am not saying this is the right way, only pointing out that this mentality does exist. :-\
Or...atleast I have seen it before.
daftandbarmy
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It looks like you guys are in volent agreement with one another. Make safe!
And soem of the worst treatment I got as a 2Lt was from 'senior' 2Lts in the same mess! Egads...
And soem of the worst treatment I got as a 2Lt was from 'senior' 2Lts in the same mess! Egads...
daftandbarmy
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Good old regimental rogue, for interest
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/srsub/officer_and_nco.htm
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/srsub/officer_and_nco.htm
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