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Attack Helicopters

Z, actually I only have 2 hrs on the Griffon, I was only operational on the 147 and 135, there rest was flying an oak bomber and doing some PG work, then into my current staff wog position in Army combat development/doctrine.   I was in 10 TAG HQ when the Griffy first came in and served as the last official SO Impl(ementation) for the 146 after all the other guys scurried away from St-Hubert, and I was left to carry a whole load of files along Autoroute 20 and the 401 to Kingston.   Well, that an a whole lot of staffing systems requirements, acquisitions and T&E stuff, thereafter.

"Tongue in cheek", I told myself I'd get only out of the office when there was a decent chopper in the inventory.   ;D   (p.s. That can also mean a Griffon with some teeth!)

Cheers,
Duey
 
Inch, I can hardly disagree with you about aircraft, but your point about the LAV actually reinforces mine.

LAVs do not have the armour or firepower to mix it up in direct assaults, and several threads across the forum are devoted to debating what we will be able to do, and how it will be done. Your pilots can fly right up to the FEBA, but will be in range of far more weapons than if they are orbiting about 3-4km to the rear. The downside is the Hellfire armed Griffon will only be able to fire at targets 4-5km ahead of the FEBA, hardly an improvement over a LAV-TOW.

Dismounted infantry will have similar limitations, the firepower and extra kit available on the LAV will have to be left behind so everyone inside is not incinerated by an RPG round.

We can look forward to improved versions of the Griffon, and perhaps alternatives like armed UAVs will break the deadlock on the use of close air support.
 
a_majoor said:
Inch, I can hardly disagree with you about aircraft, but your point about the LAV actually reinforces mine.

LAVs do not have the armour or firepower to mix it up in direct assaults, and several threads across the forum are devoted to debating what we will be able to do, and how it will be done. Your pilots can fly right up to the FEBA, but will be in range of far more weapons than if they are orbiting about 3-4km to the rear. The downside is the Hellfire armed Griffon will only be able to fire at targets 4-5km ahead of the FEBA, hardly an improvement over a LAV-TOW.

You meant Duey right? I didn't mention LAVs in any of my posts.

I disagree about the need for a helo to stay back a distance, that's why us crafty pilots invented nap-of-the-earth flying. You can't kill what you can't see (even on radar). The trees block radars quite effectively as do valleys and other topography. You sneak in, pop up, ruin some poor tanker's day, pop down and sneak away amongst the terrain. The Apaches and Cobras have been doing it for years, they're not as armoured as you may think, they rely on the maneuverability and speed of the machine to accomplish their goals, not armour in a face to face duel.
 
Late comer to this thread, but anyone here read G2mil?  here's an article of interest.

http://www.g2mil.com/O-6B.htm

 
a_majoor, inch is right, and his comments speak directly to what I mentioned before in this post about folks thinking that somehow choppers suddenly stop flying when en wpns may be in play.  FEBA?  Are we actually still using that term?  I work in Army Doctrine and I haven't heard that word used in a very long time, particularly with assymetric threats and non-contiguous battle space.

I don't think LAVTUA even comes close to a Hellfire in engagnement range...unclas numbers of 3250-3750m for TOW 2-improved and 8km+ for Hellfire means a Griffy could engage a ways back (if it chose to be that far back) and still pound things several ground force tactical bounds forward.  (LAV)TUA is still the middle cat in the DFS team.  MGS being the shorty of the group and MMEV being the 8km+ player.  Just point me in the direction of the right thread to discuss this point, it's an intersting one, for sure.

Interestingly, I spoke with a US SBCT Batallion Commander months ago about the Stryker, and of us getting our MGS.  He said he'd trade in all his Strykers and LAV 1's in a heartbeat and take our LAV 3's.  He said the only reason the US put an LP 105 on a LAV chassis was because their LAV is turret-less and only sports a .50 cal.  He said he'd kill to have our LAV 3 with 25mm Bushmaster!  :o  This was from a US Army Cav officer who's fought the Stryker in OIF!

Cheers,
Duey
 
Excellent stuff...I'm seeing alot of good commentary and perspective from across the spectrum here :salute:.

Now DPT, I have a question about the Tac-Hel community - has anything regarding doctrine or employment of Tac Hel in ground support come out of the US Army Aviation getting shot to hell in An Najaf in OIF.  Didn't about 30 Apaches get put out of commission to some extent?  If the Iraqis were capable of doing this, what lessons are we taking away for our team?

(I think this was the Scenario that A Majoor was looking to when envisioning a different approach to Tac Helo support.)

DPT said:
Interestingly, I spoke with a US SBCT Batallion Commander months ago about the Stryker, and of us getting our MGS.  He said he'd trade in all his Strykers and LAV 1's in a heartbeat and take our LAV 3's.  He said the only reason the US put an LP 105 on a LAV chassis was because their LAV is turret-less and only sports a .50 cal.  He said he'd kill to have our LAV 3 with 25mm Bushmaster!  :o  This was from a US Army Cav officer who's fought the Stryker in OIF!

Wow, and to think we've trashed the turret in some threads on here.  Interesting to note that the grass always seems greener on the other-side of the fence.
 
Infanteer, the engagements resulting in the loss and damage of AH-64s in OIF were one of the things I am drawing from, but there is an article in one of the back issues of the ADTB (which I can't find right now, damnit) on the use of the Griffon as an armed attack helicopter, and some of the responses to that article said the same things I am bringing up.

If we want to get an attack helicopter or CAS ability in the CF, we should at least ensure we are using the right equipment (AH-64, "Tiger", "Mongoose", Cobra, Rooivik, "Havoc", plus more I have forgotten for the moment; you don't get this much choice shopping for pickup trucks!), of finding an outside the box solution such as armed UAVs. Griffon pilots may well be brave and bold enough to attempt armed support, but I would rather see them as brave and bold attack helo drivers if they must do this.
 
Infanteer, a_majoor, good points! (Infanteer, I was just as surpised by the SBCT Bn Comd as you about the Stryker comments...definitely seems the grass may not be greener on the other side!)

Firstly, yes, much of the work we're doing ranging from doctrine development, down to TTPs (and even BTS I've been working on for a unit working up to SHIRBRIG high readiness) takes into account other nations' LL.  Specifically regarding US Army aviation, I have been working very closely for the last year and a half with the US Army Aviation Center in Ft. Rucker, AL, to take down their lessons from OEF, OIF and other ops (including aviation from those whom some of you who have been down to Bragg or were in Khandahar in 2002 may have had the opportunity to fly with.)  I have shared our aviation transformation material with the US Army's senior aviation transformation guru (a VERY savvy, CW5 ret'd aviator) and likewise, he with me, so the link is one person TIGHT.  Tugged along by my US Army counterpart, I had the opportunity to chat very briefly with US Gen Cody (VCSA, but more importantly an aviator) down in Washington this summer at an ABCA meeting.  I learned alot about US Army views of ops in about three minutes and took what he had to say to heart, you don't get that kind of advice every day.

A-majoor, regarding the OIF incidents, yes, we're definitely learning from the unfortunate experiences of the US (and the Brits), -64's, the -47 near Khanduz, etc....  I'll talk about doctrinal employment of AH vs. ARH below, but interestingly, one of the biggest take aways about loss of aircraft, crew and pax came from not the tactical employment of aviation but other factors related to the terrain of the theatre.  Interestingly, there were numerous cases where of all things, the Air Traffic Control folks had won the war over having aviators return home from missions in nice orderly patterns that make ATC's job easier.  Imagine the joy of the insurgents when they saw that all returning aircraft changed from tactical use of terrin and features into lined up blips all coming along the same route towards the airfiled while still way outside the perimeter fence!  Sadly, it's only a matter of time before and RPG connects with the boys.  US Army is re-writing TTPs on a continual basis, and ATC no longer directs how aircrew will return to base, thus avoiding the potential establishment of undesireable routine.

Now, that is also not to say the an armed Griffon, or any armed hel would be employed (per current doctrine) as an AH.  Just so folks don't think we're trying to get to big for our britches, we clearly understand that AH per se are part of a large, integrated force package, whose purpose is very specific, primarily anti-armour or all-arms call-for-fire support (I would call it aviation CAS, but the '18 boys get kind of snarky when any other than them uses the term CAS to describe what they do... ;)  A Canadian armed hel (ARH vice AH)would most likely be used primarily as part of the combined recce team (mounted) with the connotation of "fight to see" beyond the engagement range of en wpn systems, or in a supporting fires to the DFS engaged in decisive actions.  In both cases, the "ARH" would function as a team member within a larger formation, not being the spear point of ops as the AH often finds itself in.

Funny about some call CAS (or what we all know to be more accurately avn support to an all arms call for fire)!  I've spoken recently with Marines who describe what their "grey angels, dealing death from above, and dropping 30mm brass on top of their heads (AH-1W's)" as CAS.  The boys aren't fussed over the intracacies of words...in their eyes, ugly grey helo's chucking Hellfire and 30mm forward over top while they advance over the ground is pretty effective "CAS" in their eye's!  When I talk of USAF 'CAS', they usually just call that "air force stuff'..."it's not close at all, not like my fellow soldiers flying Cobras over my head...that's CLOSE."

Cheers,
Duey
 
Here's an interesting one for consideration.

They have taken the standard MD 500 series LOH (which I believe is used as an armed platform by the US Special Ops Community) and taken the pilot out of it and flown it as a UAV.

Implications for Attack Helo support, pilot needs, Cavalry doctrine, Long Range Patrol support?



the aircraft could be configured to carry a variety of payloads. 

The weapons-related testing is scheduled to be completed over the next several months. Boeing engineers expect this testing to also demonstrate the simple integration of existing qualified systems for Little Bird aircraft onto the UAV, which would also include auxiliary fuel tanks and sensors. 

The Unmanned Little Bird is uniquely suited for precision re-supply; communications relay using large, heavy packages; airborne intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; downed pilot recovery, and weapons delivery. 


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34
 
With the proposal of a heavy lift chopper might this free up some of the Grifs to get armed up?

What do you think the heavy lift will be Pave Low or a varriant of that sort?
 
I never could understand why Canada sold its' Chinooks.  The Dutch are still using them in Iraq.
 
big bad john said:
I never could understand why Canada sold its' Chinooks. The Dutch are still using them in Iraq.

It happened at a time when there were multiple Chinooks falling out of the skys in the US Forces.

I don't think the Griffons could be armed to any great extent without any major modifications.  Their flight range would also be greatly decreased.

GW
 
big bad john said:
I never could understand why Canada sold its' Chinooks.   The Dutch are still using them in Iraq.

Although the last official CH147 Chinook mission was August, 1991 (I was the FO on the msn, then BGen Cuppens was Comd 10 TAG and also Comd FMC's "COS Air", he and Foster, Comd FMC, were both in attendance in 11 Hgr, Uplands) the decision was essentially made in late-89/early-90 while FMC was still responsible for funding aviation (this was true until 1992, when AIRCOM officially took over funding responsibility for aviation).  Our CH147 was essentially a CH-47C+, the "+" being an automated flight control system (AFCS) that was what guys today would call a basic, manually-coupled flight director; upgraded Lycoming T55-LS11 engines; and an upgraded 28,000lb hook (vice a standard C's 20,000lb hook).  The problem was, it still retained the dynamic components of the C which were no longer in production -- transmissions, metal main blades, etc...  The CH-47 production line was only producing D-models.  The only figure I've heard from guys who were in DLA (directorate of land aviation) at the time was $400M to upgrade all 7 of our machines.  I don't know if this was US$ or Cdn$. 

To be honest, I can see why some folks though they needed to cut losses and run, so to speak.  We were only in Cyprus and the Sianai and the Army wasn't really using the 47 that much.  As much as some of my friends in green will say it was never there, I can tell you that servicability wasn't as bad as many say (considering the beast was 14-15 years old with NO major maintenance updates) and that the Chinook was actually being used more as a CF asset, a rotary-wing Herc if you will.  Aside from some para and boat work we did with the SSF in early 1991, most every other task was a "national"-type task.  I think the beast got lost in the shuffle and didn't have a champion to look after it.

Hopefully, as times and current ops have changed, so to I hope has the willingness to realize the 'Hook still has a place in CF operations...now more than ever...and that those in appropriate position fully support efforts to acquire a med/hvy lift cap for the CF.

Cheers,
Duey
 
As well, like the Herc, the CH-47 has national disaster relief capabilities that could be "talked-up" to support its acquisition.
 
Duey said:
the Army wasn't really using the 47 that much.  
Yeah, well... if it worked anything like the C-130s, then it's no surprise. I spent some time as Para Ops NCO in 3R22eR and we are always the last priority. We keep asking for the freaking frames, but we are always at the bottom of the priorities list. Everybody and his dog can get support before us. Operations, aircrew trg, national taskings... name it, it comes before us.
Luckily, I made some good contacts at 8 Wing Ops, and we were able to combine their aircrew trg with our needs. Anyway, it was likely the same type scenario with the Chinooks...
Finally, I was on the last continuation para with CH-147s... it was a sad day, but they were nice jumps
 
Jungle said:
Yeah, well... if it worked anything like the C-130s, then it's no surprise. I spent some time as Para Ops NCO in 3R22eR and we are always the last priority. We keep asking for the freaking frames, but we are always at the bottom of the priorities list. Everybody and his dog can get support before us. Operations, aircrew trg, national taskings... name it, it comes before us.
Luckily, I made some good contacts at 8 Wing Ops, and we were able to combine their aircrew trg with our needs. Anyway, it was likely the same type scenario with the Chinooks...
Finally, I was on the last continuation para with CH-147s... it was a sad day, but they were nice jumps

Jungle, I'm not sure where the breakdown in who gets tasked happened.  Something tells me that there was also some hiccuping at the Areas (given how smooth an operation the four areas can make things, in the eyes of the Brigades and Units.)  When we weren't getting calls to the squadron, we (450 Sqn) would actually phone up to Pet and ask if anyone wanted to go flying...usually SSF was the only group to make things happen when we were able to go...boats and para.

I have pics of that last continuation training, Jungle, I was a cojo on that trip.  When we would chat with the boys, most of them would tell us the -47 was their favourite jump.  I was also flying on the CAR's family day in '91.  The CAR's Honourary jumped with the boys...man, he was pretty frail looking, but there was a twinkle in his eye like no other jumper on board had.  He was up near the cockpit with the CO -- I looked back at the 3-minute call and saw him looking forward into the cockpit with a grin bigger than Jim Carey's!  I flicked my visor up, gave him a nod, then a salute...he flashed me one back, a quick thumbs up, then still grinning turned back to the rear to hook up.  I'd love to have only half the old gent's gumption when I get to be 80 years old! 

That all said, there's no doubt who'd be getting supported if we got 47's again...

Cheers,
Duey
 
Here is my idea of how the CF attack chopper works

The Griffon already a C6 mount for it.

Next we put the one troop on their with a box of hand grenades and a sling shot.

I don't know how long the sling shot would take to past the procurement stage (Public works or what ever their called)

Voila, you now have a....
Attack chopper Ala Canadian
 
As long as 60% of the compents were made in Quebec it would pass no problem.


;D ;D ;D
 
If we do get attack helicopters.........IF..........
Would the contractor be from here in North America, or could they come from the east?
Just think, a huge Mi-35 Hind D with a red maple leaf on it.....
 
Here are two to Photoshop, then:

Kamov KA-50 (Hokum), and

Mil 28 (Havoc)
 
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