Attrition Rates within the Infantry

[mdh]

GO!!! and Deltadog,

I believe I read a statistic (some parliamentary committee report IIRC) that said attrition rates in the combat arms were running about 70 per cent after BE - is that still the case or has the situation improved in the last couple of years?

Cheers, mdh

 

[bubba]

Seems nuthen has really changed in 15 yrs since i got out,and now i hear there not recruting like they did back then..Myself i would like to see the ranks paid the same as the rcmp.A cop i know pretty good told me he would get 100 000 a year to go to Haiti,big diff between them and a grunt.My ques is who disserves what .Money talks or the trained grunt walks,so to speak.Hey GO what would a pte cpl gross for a year with a astan tour.

 

[DELTADOG13]

mdh,
On average I would say that combat arms units lose between 50 -70% after their first BE and then thereafter roughly 10% more after the next BE. But that's just an average. I know from my course of 25 we lost about half. Then after the next contract it was another half. Right now I believe there are about 6 still in as Infantry. Alot have released or have moved on to other trades and jobs.

Do or Die for the VRI

 

[Yeoman]

I've had a variety of problems even with the fact that I'm on my BE.
the one that stuck the most out of my head; the lack of sending me on roto 3. they cut an entire platoon out, when they damn well should have had a fully company go out on that roto. the amount of time those boys put in was insane (wonderbread I'm sure can back me up on that). and to top it off, we had to train reservists to take our spots while over there because when leave started to kick in they didn't have enough troops in julien, so they started pulling troops from mirage.
then there was also doing ex's that have no true meaning behind what we do (I've been on two that actually had any purpose behind what we do anymore, I actually enjoyed those ex's).
another thing was how you were told that all this neato coolio stuff was going to happen; if you're not in a mech battalion, good friggin luck getting a jump course. to this day I still don't know how I got the course. I'm still waiting for my jungle warfare course
a lack of just fun training in general; mix it up during pt. I'm a guy that can NOT run if his life depended on it, I'm just a horrible runner. so on the one ruck march we were doing, we went to the soccer field and played tag basically; bloody hard, and pretty good for PT. havin fun without even realising it, that I'd like to see more. there's been an occasion back in my first battalion days, where we did cqc for an afternoon. that was probably the funnest training I had in the coy lines, without being on a course/tasked out with a different unit.
some NCO's don't realise this; but being passed up for courses. the two courses I got in the first battalion (air brakes, that's right got that before driver wheel, and ML, JUST ML) I just happend to get the course because the other guy already had the course; yet I look at my buddies and they're on their fourth or fifth course by the time I got my second one. that ticked me off alot. as we speak, I'm still trying to get my LSVW and my gwagon course.
I have to admit that there's alot of guys that won't look out for each other anymore. I listen to some of the CFLer's or masterjack or friendly sgt's that tell stories about how it was even just eight years ago, to me that's how it should be like. taking care of each other, at work and even outside of work. dragging buddy back from shots all the way back to the shacks because they blew all their money at the bar trying to score.
plus the beaucracy and paperwork that "needs" to happen anymore. like the rock climbing wall, why in the bloody heck do you have to go through range control to use the rock climbing wall in dondal drill hall?!? I can understand a need for a box amb, but not to inform range control of something that's not even in the training area.
there's a ton of other things I've noticed; but really that's the major things that this private has seen through the three battalions he has been in.
feel free to contradict me, I'm always willing to learn of course.
Greg

 

[GO!!!]

Seems nuthen has really changed in 15 yrs since i got out,and now i hear there not recruting like they did back then..Myself i would like to see the ranks paid the same as the rcmp.A cop i know pretty good told me he would get 100 000 a year to go to Haiti,big diff between them and a grunt.My ques is who disserves what .Money talks or the trained grunt walks,so to speak.Hey GO what would a pte cpl gross for a year with a astan tour.

Pay is one thing that has improved.

A Cpl in the infantry makes 48000-52000, and you can add about 10-14K to that if you manage to get on a tour. Add another 3K if you are a jumper, and in a jump position.

I'm not sure what a Pte. makes right now - the pay scales are out there somewhere!

 

[bubba]

Thanks GO for the reply you still in EDM. I will be out there the first of March,me an another RCR.Were goin to work in the patch as its called.If your around lets hook up for a beer.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the Chief of the Land Staff, LGen Caron, is not a member of this forum. According to his testimony before Senate (Feb 2005), troops are leaving because they are being deployed.

"This high operational tempo and what we call the "personnel tempo,'' the time away from home for professional development or for tasking, has had an impact. The first one is probably on attrition. Even though the attrition rate is improving, a few years back, and even last year, the combat arms attrition rate was higher than the Canadian Forces mean on attrition. We have to create these people; we have to ensure we have those people back in place. The attrition has certainly had an impact. I have mentioned the training, both individual and collective. The high operational tempo also had an impact. Regarding the people, the manifestation of the tempo is the attrition — that is, people were leaving. That has had the greatest impact." 1

As has been mentioned elsewhere, I've never seen any sort of comprehensive survey of people releasing, which shows trends or common themes. In the absence of such a study, one has to wonder about the sources informing the senior army leadership. From this testimony, however, there seems to be a greater focus on training replacements rather than retaining the troops we've already trained.

------------------------
1 Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence. Issue 11 - Evidence, February 7, 2005. Online, http://www.parl.gc.ca/38/1/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/defe-e/11eva-e.htm?Language=E&Parl=38&Ses=1&comm_id=76

 

[Glorified Ape]

It seems NCOs are mentioned alot in not helping the attrition-causing conditions, but isn't it really the officers that are responsible? How much latitude do the NCOs really have to implement different training or activities? I gather junior officers have little more power than the NCOs to affect change, even at the platoon level (and from what I've been told, even in areas as minor as PT activities), but what about the senior officers?

 

[TCBF]

As far as the forces in general go:

I don't buy all of this 'Op Tempo' crap.  We were a lot busier in the seventies and eighties.

Only difference then was the whiners got out because they couldn't hack it.  Now they hang around and poison the atmosphere.

I think we have a lot bigger problems than tempo - , the way we treat our soldiers, for example.  We are letting talent walk out the door for no good reason.  We are losing GOOD soldiers faster than bad.

Tom

 

[GO!!!]

I've heard the saying "the Op tempo is too slow, and the c0ck tempo is too fast"

No one is quitting because they are deployed too much in the Infantry. They are quitting because of the regular crap, like weekend duties, taskings to Wx, and sitting around doing nothing for 3 years as a Pte.

If Gen Caron is not saying this to SCONDVA, he is either lying, or is totally unaware of conditions in the lower ranks.

I maintain that no comprehensive study on releasing soldiers has been done because the leadership simply does not want to hear the answers.

GA - The things that make most people quit are the petty, BS things that just wear you down over time, like early timings, 9-12 parades a day, the uneven application of discipline and the use of courses to reward cronyism is all the domain of the SNCO. Officers have very little input on these sort of things, and most choose to let their NCOs handle it, lest they be seen as a micromanager.

You can have the best officers in the world, but if he is paired with a lazy, incompetent or vindictive NCO, you are in for a rough ride.

 

[TCBF]

"If Gen Caron is not saying this to SCONDVA,...."

- Probably not really fair to him, he can only go by what he is told.  The support trades outnumber the Cbt A and bring more clout to the tables in Ottawa.  They have a WHOLE different corporate philosophy than the Cbt A, and a lot of the "green" support has dark blue and light blue rank on their slip ons, which adds to the chasm.

When they say 'tired', they don't mean young (or even not so young) Cbt A, but Doctors, Nurses, Padres, Hy Eqpt Engrs, senior CSS ranks, etc.

Tom

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"he can only go by what he is told"

He can always ask.  And I don't mean his subordinates either.

You may have a point about it being more direct to the purple trades though. 

Can't argue with anything GO!!!  had to say about why the 031 get out.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Maybe someone should invite him to this thread....

 

[George Wallace]

No one is quitting because they are deployed too much in the Infantry. They are quitting because of the regular crap, like weekend duties, taskings to Wx, and sitting around doing nothing for 3 years as a Pte.

This statement caught my eye and was quite a surprise.  What are these guys joining for in the first place?  This is the Army.  We have all kinds of Weapons, Vehicles, and other Equipment, Ammo, and stores that require 'supervision', if not 'guarding' 24 and 7.  Do these guys figure that it is a 9 to 5 job and some civie can come in after working hours and monitor the Unit lines?  Do they think that notional support to Courses or Exercises makes for good training?  (One thing I truly liked about time in Germany, was when on Exercise, there was a Corps out there as Enemy Force, not just "Send in a CONTACT on that tree on the Hill...It is a Platoon and BMPs dug-in.".)  Do they expect the Sergeant Major to sweep the Hangar floor on Friday afternoon, as all the Ptes go down to the nearest 'Watering Hole and chase cheap women"?  Friggin "Gimme Generation"!  Let them fill out those Macdonalds applications.....Do you want a Burger with your crys?

 

[Yeoman]

wallace; I think that sentence there is more directed towards the final point; and do nothing for three years.
as it sounds like my one old sgt-major used to say; if you didn't join the infantry so you can put a bullet into someone's head, then get the hell out of my unit!
myself and a friend of mine in the 1st battalion we signed up march in 04. both of our contracts are up in march 07, just about the same time frame that unit will be coming back from post-roto leave. neither of us had the intentions to re-sign, but yet just transfer back to the reserves. neither of us were allowed to get a contract extention of two months in order to do the roto. there was both of our only chances of garunteed deployment (lets not get into my roto 3 thing again) and yet they couldn't extend our contracts just that much longer?
it's not like we were getting out entirely; I just had enough of the area and some problems that had arose with the chain of command. I personally have intentions to go back into the regular infantry, just with a different capbadge, so they're not actually loosing a soldier per say.
like several of my buddies here in the 3rd battalion; they sat around for three years and never got deployed over seas. same with some of my friends in the 1st battalion. heck some of them didn't deploy in the first five years they were in the army.
I know that sweeping floors, and doing weekend duties is part of the job. but so is deploying overseas and the close within and destroy the enemy.
Greg

 

[George Wallace]

I could just turn around and say "Whopee Sh  !"  My first deployment was after I had been in for 19 years.  (I don't really count my time in Germany as a UN or Peacekeeping Tour).  I too missed out on three tours in the end of my career.  Now I have an opportunity to do more than I did back at the Reg't.

As for getting out because you didn't like it.  Crap...the 'hierarchy' in the Regt/Bn changes every two years....can't you wait that long?  Is the BS any less on Civie Street or will it be less or just different BS in another Regt/Bn? 

 

[2 Cdo]

George I noted that you are/were a crewman and seem to have the same attitude about BS that a lot of the older soldiers have. I also have over 20 years in and have seen the bullsh@t rise a lot faster than realistic training. To sit here and state "just suck it up" is missing the point. The troops, on average, know that there will be crap jobs, taskings whatever. There problem is when the crap jobs start to seriously outpace the relevant or high-speed training/courses that the average infantry soldier needs just to survive every sh@tty third world tasking that we see today!

Gone are the days of Cyprus and the Golan Heights doing gate guard and then going downtown and getting drunk and fighting with the locals.(God I miss those days!) If we are losing troops at this rate then we will never be able to advance our units past the bare minimum in training as we will have to keep re-training new troops every year! I'm sure you can see this as a recipe for disaster with the latest tours we have been on.

Also in reference to operational tempo in the 70's and 80's, other than Cyprus and NATO tasking in Europe the infantry had lots of time for training just not much deployable time. When I joined in 82 if you found an infantry soldier under the rank of Sgt with 2 or more medals he was something! Now it is not uncommon for Pte's to have 2-3 medals which adds up to the tempo being a lot faster now than it was then!

Have a nice day.

 

[George Wallace]

2 Cdo

Good points.

One point, I think that has been overlooked in this discussion, and Yeoman got a raw deal on, is the fact that many in the Cbt Arms, as a whole, have held off on their Release until after a Tour.  Young soldiers have almost always realized that if they were going to get a Release, they should somehow have a little more in their Bank Accounts, before leaving.  I know I could have used some more towards my Mortgage, and I am sure similar ideas went through Yeoman's mind.  I, too, was asked if I would take an Extension to go on Tour, but Ottawa said no.  I know how he feels.  I had wondered years ago why so many got out after a Tour, and now I know better.

It seems that in many cases the Units are sending over the same guys over and over again, an many who want to do a Tour are being passed over.  This does nothing for retention either.  Those who don't go become disillusioned.  Those who continually go, get burnt out and disillusioned.

 

[2 Cdo]

Again good points George but I will counter with the fact that in most units there is always those who do the minimum and thus avoid tours/exercises and courses. We all know the types I'm talking about, we can't get them to leave the forces because they realise they have a sweet deal. Or the ones who only come out of the woodwork when a new, more exciting tour comes up. These are the people we should be getting rid of, the ones who are taking a slot up without really contributing to the unit!

The good ones get out, I think, because they are not burnt out, just p*ssed off at these oxygen thieves in the battalions, squadrons whatever. Plus the truly motivated know that they can accomplish something on civvy street because of who they are, whereas the slugs know they could never have it so good if they left the military!

So I honestly don't think it's burnout, more like plain ordinary frustration with having to deal with useless, unmotivated slugs on a daily basis!

 

[Yeoman]

just so everyone is aware of this; I am not actually moaning and bitching here. I'm just trying to put out the valid reasons of why guys I know at my rank level are getting out of the CF.
you've both had valid reasons as to why the troops are getting out.
it is more lame stuff (ie pushin a broom, having a kit inspection for the fifth time in a month, lack of interesting pt) then the good stuff (ie. ex's that mean something towards how we work in the real world, fun ranges, good coures)
as for the hieracy you said; changing a co/rsm doesn't do much to truly effect how a unit operates, it's having a sgt/mcpl that doesn't want to be there either, or a variety of other reasons that can ruin your time in the unit.
listening to how the older guys talk 'bout the good ol days' that's what I was expecting when I joined up. lets go do a 10km march every couple of weeks rather then blow all our ammo once or twice at the range every year. lets go just grab our ropes and beeners and do an improvised crossing class out in the trees. if there's nothing going on; let the troops hit up the weight room in the building (provided if they have one, I know both the 1st and 3rd do and rarely was I allowed to go in there during work hours even when I was doing nothing). you boys feel like doing some pugil bouts? alright lets grab a medic and the equipment. or lets sit down and have a refresher on take down and handcuffing techniques (so we can get liqoured and use them on each other of course). lets go do fun shoots (ie. pulling the shotguns and pistols out and running a jungle lane with them)
but there's just so much monotonus (hey who knew I knew such a big word!) days anymore; run, sit around, lunch, help cq or something, and oop it's three lets go home!
some of the best training I've had was under a Capt in the 1st battalion when I was in Dukes Coy, and we were in the coy lines moving lockers around, praticing our room entrance/clearning drills, or when we were doing cqc stuff out in the hallway (learn to zapstrap me as tight as you can, or I will get my hands and feet out of it, trust me heh). or doing long distance shuffles with the rucks on (now I'm a troop that doesn't mind his rucking, it may not be the same weight as the plates and ammo you'd carry overseas, but it's still getting the legs use to the weight)
my main thing for any of the chain of command that's out there on this board that is reading this (and bloody heck, don't be afraid to come up to me at work, I'm the kid with the broken face right now, that should clue you all in now!); if we sitting around, call qm and see if you can grab the pugil stuff, or go ask cq if they've got any extra flex cuffs and pull out the mats to pratice handcuffing stuff at 70% level of strength, or pull out the ropes and beeners and do competition between the sections/platoons in the coy for how can get their improvised rivers crossing done with all their troops across first (when you make anything a competition at our level, we'll work just that much harder!)
maybe I'm mumbling there again, maybe I'm not.
but hopefully there's someone with a couple of bars or heck maybe even a leaf or two that's reading this, and seeing why the troopaloops are getting ticked off and quiting the military all together.
Greg