• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Attrition Rates within the Infantry

I've said it before too, but this is the result of recruiting "thinking troops" as opposed to high school dropouts.

You can't feed them valises full of BS anymore, they can research and read, and they do care.

So many of these thinking soldiers join, then think to themselves "this is dumb, I work for a guy who says fuc* every second word, we mop floors obsessively, and some general just stopped by and told us, half in french, that we are the primary backup for the unit that may replace the one that goes - if the reserves don't get the job instead"

Then he gets put on air brakes and re-arranges the VOR line for two years. At the end of two years, thinking soldier pulls pole, and the NCOs sit there and call him "weak" "quitter" and "nintendo generation" on his way out the door.

Now the dinosaurs on this site will tell you that they should just suck it up, soldier on, it is all part of the 25 year plan, blah blah.  But that is just the point. Either treat your manpower like a valuable resource, or continue to pi$$ it away - but don't complain when the units are short 100 pers.

The blame for the lack of opportunity to deploy lies with our higher ranks, the blame for punitive and petty working conditions with the NCOs, adn the blame for high hopes and expectations with the privates.
 
I really didn't want to get dragged into this too far, but a couple of points, well really only one:  Remember that classic saying; "Are you part of the Problem, or part of the Solution"?  If we loose all our good people, who could with time be the solution, they in the end land up being the problem. 

You can complain if you want, all you want, but if you take off for a Civie job, or whatever, the problem remains, and it is because you were not part of the solution.  Slam this thought all you want, but if you don't become the solution, the problem will remain.  I know it is rather simplistic to say that, but it is true.

Kinda a Catch 22.
 
so basically what you're saying is that a private should be doing the job of what a mcpl/sgt should know that they should be doing already? to take initative so that the section/platoon has something to do for the day? because that's what it sounds like to me.
plus it's a little hard for me to do all the sweet coolio training when I'm in transport platoon driving everyone around anyways :D
Greg
 
Yeoman said:
(and bloody heck, don't be afraid to come up to me at work, I'm the kid with the broken face right now, that should clue you all in now!);

See Y, the doc told you that you should listen and duck more than you talk...

BTW Tansport is the most important platoon in that enitre org. If they don't do thier job, everyone walks.
 
George Wallace said:
You can complain if you want, all you want, but if you take off for a Civie job, or whatever, the problem remains, and it is because you were not part of the solution.  Slam this thought all you want, but if you don't become the solution, the problem will remain.  I know it is rather simplistic to say that, but it is true.

Kind of like retiring as soon as you reach 25 years eh?  ^-^

Seriously though - there comes a point where most men sit down and say to themselves "I can work within the flawed framework and be successful, or work against it to create change and be a Cpl for life." I have come to the conclusion that the army will be around after I am gone, and that as the saying goes, no one is irreplaceable.

IMHO, people who work within the framework are loathe to change it, because that is what they know, and it has been good to them. They get promoted and perpetuate the flaws. The guys who say "sorry sir, you are wrong" end up carrying heavy things as Cpls for a few more years, so sticking around will not solve the problem.

The biggest change in the infantry will have to occur when the leaders within it sit up and realise that the tried tested and true method is not always the best, and that innovation is a necessary part of leadership. Until then, I suspect the best and brightest will continue to walk out the door as antiquated methods of management and execution remain the norm.

 
The biggest change in the infantry will have to occur when the leaders within it sit up and realise that the tried tested and true method is not always the best, and that innovation is a necessary part of leadership. Until then, I suspect the best and brightest will continue to walk out the door as antiquated methods of management and execution remain the norm.

Okay GO!!!, you've got my attention.  What are some tangible things we can do to reduce attrition?  If you were boss for a day, what innovations would you make, understanding the manning stressors that we currently face, especially at the NCO level?
 
I remember being a young Trooper almost three decades ago, and the whole lot of us bellyaching about the personality deficiencies of the carbon units just above us on the food chain.  Ironically, we got to watch each other mature into Junior NCOs, then Senior NCOs, then Warrants and Captains who became poster children for the very CPDs (Command Presence Disorders - yes, I just made this term up) we loved to loathe as Troopers.

Lest We Forget is November 11.  The rest of the year is "How Soon We Forget".

I wish there was an easy cure for this.  Something that maybe came in a bottle (no, not that one).

I think a lot of it boils down to not so much treating people as we ourselves were treated, but treating them as we know we SHOULD have been treated.  'Stop the Insanity' and all that.

As far as retention goes, I think we lose a lot of good soldiers for bad reasons - at least in my backyard: the 011 Crewman.  I cannot speak for other trades or classifications, but I would not be surprised if the situation was similar.  All things being equal:

1. We should not have soldiers unable to go on tour when others are going back on their second or third to the same place.

2. We should not be losing young soldiers because they are bored.

3. We should not be losing old soldiers because they have been led to feel that "Experience is a liability in today's Army."

4. We should not be losing mid-career NCOs because they have been posted to purgatory to free up command slots for streamers half their age.

These things will happen in any hierarchy, but we should not be losing soldiers over it.

Tom



 
The ways that GO!!! would address attrition in the Infantry, within the scope of current manning stressors.

1. Group punishment, inflicted by any leader, at any level, would automatically earn that individual an "NI" on their PDR in the "develops subordinates" bubble. Nothing crushes morale like being punished for something you did not do, especially when the same indviduals are earning you the punishment again and again, or there is a "moving tgt" in terms of the expected standard. This is not teamwork either - it creates an "us and them" mentality, which only serves to drive the team further apart.

2. Organise tasking and course nominations on the basis of who actually wants to go on them, although with due consideration given to operational and training requirements. Too often, the man nominated for that task to Wx was the hapless individual that put his hand up for the "who wants to learn to drive a motorbike" question, while another soldier who really wanted a short break from the Bn would have taken it if he knew what it was. Now you have two angry soldiers on your hands, as opposed to one happy one. I realise that some taskings are going to require a "voluntold", but I find that this is rarely the case. Taskings are used as punishments, when they could be used as short breaks from Bn life.

3. Mandate a once weekly "outside the box" training event. Ideas include cross country skiing, geo-caching (with map and compass instead of GPS), navigation using lat-long, emergency driver courses on vehicles we don't usually use (BV-206, LOSV, Leopard, LAV, AVGP etc.) and finally, cross training with other units to see exactly how the other side of the team works. (Learning small boat drills with the Engineers, gun drills with artillery units, setting up a directional antennae with sigs pl etc.) None of these ideas would require much money or kit, and in many cases we already have the items and instructors required at the lower levels. Events like this break the monotony of running for PT five days a week, and cleaning weapons in the afternoon, and provide more depth to the skill sets we already have.

4. Introduce a "working, working out, or gone" policy, where troops would be doing their assigned tasks for the day, working out and doing PT, or at home. There is no problem with sending your privates home at 1400 or 1500, providing all of the work is done, and they are in reasonably good shape (75+ on the Coopers test). This time is more than recouped on exercises and during such events as workup training and taskings, when long hours are the norm, and it builds goodwill towards the CoC.

5. Reign in the ability of NCOs to charge troops in "first offence" cases. In cases of an ND, drunkeness, theft, etc, fine, give it to 'em, but when minor infractions (such as a less than standard room inspection whilst the troops are deployed) are seeing troops doing the hatless dance, there is a great deal of animosity created, and for no good reason. Some disciplinary infractions would be better addressed with more time at the duty desk than a charge for every single problem.

6. Tell the truth. (this is not directed at any particular level of the CoC) There seems to be alot more information out there that the troops do not know, and should. The best example I can think of is that of the TF slated for 2007. We were told, on a Bn parade that one company would be going with the 3VP BG. Everyone was pleased - and why not? Then recently, other levels of the CoC tell us that "well, we don't have a mission yet. but we're working on it" The dismay in the room was tangible. Which is it? Why are we told one thing when it is known not to be true, or only partially true? If there is a deployment happening, great, let us know, but if there is only a small chance of it, the letdown when it is cancelled is far harder on the soldiers than the pleasant surprise that would have been if it had happened by surprise.

While the organisational aspect of many of these reformations would indeed imply a requirement of more work for the NCOs, I believe that this problem could be addressed by having events such as afternoon PT and non-standard training events organised at the MCpl level, for themselves and below. NCOs are busy alot of the time, and cutting the platoon away for training that is both relevant and interesting would seem to benefit all involved, providing interesting trg for the lower ranks, leadership opportunity for the middle ranks, and time to catch up on admin for the upper ranks.

I think that the idea that you must be hard on your troops to be a good leader is false, and while a certain degree of rigidity is required, and may have been the norm in the past, times are changing. If you want to retain smart, hard working people, you have to treat them as such, and IME, this does not happen. There always seems to be at least one member of the CoC who revels in screaming at his subordinates for little or no reason, ensuring they stay until 1700 daily, and singling out individuals for even worse treatment, whether they deserve it or not. This is what drives guys away - the accumulation of small annoyances that wears them down, and when these are topped off with not being deployed, push them to a release or not re-signing.

My 2 cents.
 
No. 3 is well within your ability to push up your C of C.  (Plus it's sensible and well written.)  Why not run with it?  Maybe it will lead to more positive changes....

No. 5 is also valid. I'm a firm believer in discipline at the lowest level and would rather "correct" a soldier than punish him.  That being said, if I have to charge you, then you're guilty and I'm out of options to 'correct' you.

 
It's been a while since there has been a post here, however, I had to say a few things about the earlier posts on this thread.
I am in the process of applying for the infantry (hopefully 1 or 3 PPCLI).
The reason I am joining the forces at all is for the job security. I have worked a plethora of jobs, from dishwashing to truck driving, landscaping to lot attendant,  and from my experience no other employer can garauntee your wage, wage increase, or hours on the job. Sure alot of employers SAY"80hrs" or "80hrs plus overtime", that only means this week/month while they re-hire and re-train all the new employees. The amount of bullsh** there is in the civilian world is now become an "own it or job hop" way of life. You have to own your very own company (or at least be upper managment) to keep that job. If not, you job hop. Today you work paving roads, next week you apply for a partsman job somewhere else.
A trade could be worthwhile, but chances are your employer will not give you what you deserve, or the hours you need to support a family.
At very LEAST the forces will have a place for you to be, whether it's sweeping floors for 8hrs today and watching paint dry tommorow, at least you know you have the hours you need for a propper cheque.
I am joining for that reason (not to mention the forces has always been a dream of mine). I know I will be busy training for the Infantry for the first many months, and from the sounds of it I will be "wasting my time doing crap jobs and not shooting guns". At least I will know then that I was trained to pull a trigger and save my pals life, but for today I am stuck in garrison with a broom all morning.
I don't much care what I am doing to collect that paycheque, I was trained to do what I wanted to since I was 12 years old.
Doesn't matter what walk of life you go to or come from; NOTHING is as good as it looks on TV!
 
This thread provides quite an in-depth view on Army life at the lower levels.

Has the working environment improved for Infantry recruits in more recent years?

I had heard mention of efforts being put towards retention, but part of the problem may be the backlog of applicants for Combat Arms. Perhaps the higher-ups figure they can get away with alienating the lower ranks - there's a ton of new recruits  just waiting for a chance to get in.

There may also be intentional aspects to the attrition problem. The soldiers that are perceived as disillusioned, critical of procedure, unconventional,"burnt-out", etc. are passed over for promotion, and eventually these people give up with waiting for a "light at the end of the tunnel".

It may be how they weed out the ones with "attitude" (i.e. the ones with new, potentially superior approaches who aren't willing to shut up and conform to a flawed system). If that is the case, it's no wonder we have weak links in the CoC.

No offense to any of our commited NCO's or CO's who are doing a damn fine job of exemplifying the CF values of Integrity and Responsibility. Those of you that share the opinions of the posters on this thread (the ones the system couldn't defeat) are the only real hope we have for change.

If this thread holds true today, I believe the CF Combat Arms needs to be restructured. Something to inspire a true sense of patriotism and national cohesion would certainly help.

History has shown, that without a clear enemy to fight, the value of a warrior suffers (often in his own mind, and always in those of the decision makers).

The longer we go without a designated enemy to face, the less financial justification there is for Combat Arms. Lack of funding, and lackluster government support in general for Infantry trades, must be contributing to many of the problems expressed here and elsewhere in the forums.

That would explain the focus on Support roles at the very least.

Regardless of the cause, this thread is an excellent read. I do hope we see improvements made to the system, if they have not already been implemented.
 
Ravanosh said:
We need to reforge the CF into something our World War forefathers would be proud of.

Who the fuck are you to say they are not ?

Without a clear enemy to fight, the value of a warrior suffers (often in his own mind, and always in those of the decision makers).

Personal experience eh ?


 
To go along with what CDN Aviator said I have had the honour of meeting several WWII and Korea vets over the course of my career.  Almost to a man they have said that they are proud of the job our troops are doing.  I remember having a Vet come over and tell me he was proud of the job my and my soldiers were doing after a funeral parade. I was looking at his medals and he had a Military Cross and he was telling me he was proud of us.

Ravanosh, if you have any proof that our forefathers are not proud of todays  soldiers I would like to see it, or is this just your gut feeling?
 
Ravanosh,

This thread has excellent points, but bear in mind that it is pretty much four years old.  Treat it as an OC's Hour where grievances get aired.  Those grievances are legitimate, but you have no perspective in which to place them.

You are not in a position to pronounce judgement.

Cheers
 
Ok I just reviewed the thread to see what everyone was talking about and saw Go!!!'s comments which made me kinda sad.
Miss seeing him on here.
:cdn:
 
CDN Aviator said:
Who the frig are you to say they are not ?

Personal experience eh ?

My thoughts exactly.

Ravanosh, careful you don't fall too in love with the idea of being a warrior, or "Paladin".
 
"We need to reforge the CF into something our World War forefathers would be proud of."

I am what some would consider one of those "forefathers", not World War or Korea experience but I'm damned proud of what our soldiers do today.

Today a Korean vet hugged me and told us what good troops we have. Does that count??
 
mover1 said:
Ok I just reviewed the thread to see what everyone was talking about and saw Go!!!'s comments which made me kinda sad.
Miss seeing him on here.
:cdn:

I did the same thing and...FWIW I thought, once again, that his post above was bang on.

RIP GO!!!  :cdn:
 
After reading through the thread I was left with a sense of discontent on the part of the posters, both with the system itself and with the CoC.

Having had the opportunity to speak with family members who survived both World Wars (I have many that did not) I am left to wonder if they would approve of the way the Infantry is being managed *assuming this thread is any indication of the current state of affairs*.

My cousin also moved on from CF service into the RCMP, and is convinced that fundamental changes do need to be taken to increase member retention within the Infantry.

So I do not speak solely from my own opinion. However, I have modified my earlier post for the sake of diplomacy and clarity.
 
Ravanosh said:
My cousin also moved on from CF service into the RCMP, and is convinced that fundamental changes do need to be taken to increase member retention within the Infantry.
Such as?

I'd heard soldiers bitch once.....OK, maybe twice...about things, without offering up possible solutions. While they had some credibility by virtue of actually being in the military, you do see the value of constructive criticism, no? While you may have modified your earlier post "for the sake of diplomacy and clarity," you made no changes to add utility.

So please, feel free to provide some practical advice to address our glaring flaws.  :nod:
 
Back
Top