Auditor General Suggests RMC Not Working

[Infanteer]

Will anyone wonder (out loud): "RMC used to produce military leaders; there has been no significant change to the MilCol programme, but now it doesn't work;  what's different?  Oh, the raw materials."  No child left behind. Everyone gets a participation ribbon. Drool running from their mouths as they're glued to cell phones.

People are surprised that so many Cadets show up self-entitled, illiterate, socially helpless.... and RMC is supposed to magically fix that (without speaking harshly or releasing anyone)?  :

The only reason I'm skeptical of this statement is that the argument that the current generation is less suited for military service old and repeated by every generation.  I honestly think I remember reading a section from Caesar's Gallic Wars or some other Roman work on how new recruits to the legions weren't like the older generation.  I have a hard time believing that the cell phone is leading to the demise of youth resiliency...30 years ago, people were saying "video games" and "nintendo" were doing the same thing.

In response to the statement that "RMC used to produce military leaders; there has been no significant change to the MilCol programme, but now it doesn't work;  what's different?", I'd ask (1) Is it not working?  Or is it working as well as before but we aren't paying as much attention to the people doing well? and (2) Is it working like before, but the school is less able to keep the spotlight off of its problems?

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Good god no.
If you want a race car, you don’t try to get it by converting your Cessna. You start new.

If Canada wants an officers academy, then it should create something new at a location with appropriate training real estate.

If Canada does not need a military university, then it should close RMC. But remember that RMC does more than just OCdt under grad education.  There are a few post graduate technical programs that you will not find at a civilian university in Canada.

Seems a bit wasteful to close down a campus they just spent 200 million renovating only to open another campus somewhere else.

 

[Blackadder1916]

There's a question I have about the OAG report that I can't find the answer to: When it claims that graduating an officer from RMC costs $40K more than an average "small" university, do they consider the extra cost of taking DEOs from such a civilian university and qualifying them as commissioned officers in their calculation of comparable costs? I can't find the answer to that one. The report makes the claim that RMC is the most expansive way of generating commissioned officer, ou of the various streams, but it does not provide any background supporting the statement.

My take on the OAG report is that they answered that question primarily in paras 6.49 to 6.54 including Exhibit 6.4 and in the synopsis of RMC expenditures in Exhibit 6.3.  That 40k difference is based on a comparison of subsidizing a ROTP student at RMC vice a civvy university.  I assume (yes, I know . . . but the OAG is usually thorough in its analyses) that there is no mention of additional costs in getting officers to OFP because their analysis is based solely on getting potential officers to meet the educational requirement of an undergrad degree and their remit was not to look at the costs of specific occupational training.  However, since civilian ROTP students and RMC ROTP students would be doing the same MOC/OJT training during school breaks, costs for those periods would be the same; the main variant would be civvy uni tuition cost versus RMC operating cost.

Even though half of officers are sourced from DEO (according to the report), my expectation is that there will continue to be a requirement to subsidize undergrad education in order to attract potential officers.

For that additional 40k a year (though I would dispute the full amount) the only additional benefit that I can see is providing (and kinda, sorta ensuring?) an environment that promotes second language ability and hopefully a culture of physical fitness/sports.

 

[observor 69]

That has been the best suggestion I've heard.

RMC has been a lackluster academic institution for a long time. Per student the cost is double other universities and it rates pretty low on academics.

Personally I'd think the best way forward is everyone gets their degrees from better universities and then go to RMC for a year of finishing and "officership" training.

There's one just across the river.

 

[Strike]

In response to the statement that "RMC used to produce military leaders; there has been no significant change to the MilCol programme, but now it doesn't work;  what's different?", I'd ask (1) Is it not working?  Or is it working as well as before but we aren't paying as much attention to the people doing well? and (2) Is it working like before, but the school is less able to keep the spotlight off of its problems?

Perhaps the problem is then specifically that the MilCol program hasn't changed.  There have been massive changes in society, technology and therefore to the CAF as a whole in how we work, where and when and with what as well as the people who are joining.  The MilCol system has made some changes, yes, but those are arguably more in the social construct and its composition.  I couldn't actually speak to whether or not the military pillar has changed, but if the assertion that the programme hasn't had any significant changes in who knows how long, then likely that's the problem.

 

[McG]

Seems a bit wasteful to close down a campus they just spent 200 million renovating only to open another campus somewhere else.

Don’t get emotionally attached to sunk costs. The type of crucible training that occurs at Sandhurst or Britannia has been something that happened in Canada at locations other than RMC.  BOTC was run in Chilliwack (a location with much better training real estate) until the base was closed and a much reduced course (perhaps another element of the problem) was launched in St Jean. If you fixate on the idea the the current geography must define the solution, then you are already situating the estimate.  But to placate your concern for sunk-costs anyway, closing RMC does not have to mean divesting the infrastructure.  Any number of other institutions could be moved there (maybe CFC?).  And I have not come to the conclusion that RMC should be closed.  Maybe we need both an academy and a college? Maybe we need neither?

Back in the old Cold War days, if you did not pass BOTC, you did not get to RMC.  What if we built a program somewhere between those of Samdhurst and Brittania as a common gateway for both DEO and ROTP? Maybe it is ~20 weeks long and covers everything of BOTC, CAP and duties of a BDF platoon command?

 

[Lumber]

Don’t get emotionally attached to sunk costs. The type of crucible training that occurs at Sandhurst or Britannia has been something that happened in Canada at locations other than RMC.  BOTC was run in Chilliwack (a location with much better training real estate) until the base was closed and a much reduced course (perhaps another element of the problem) was launched in St Jean. If you fixate on the idea the the current geography must define the solution, then you are already situating the estimate.  But to placate your concern for sunk-costs anyway, closing RMC does not have to mean divesting the infrastructure.  Any number of other institutions could be moved there (maybe CFC?).  And I have not come to the conclusion that RMC should be closed.  Maybe we need both an academy and a college? Maybe we need neither?

Back in the old Cold War days, if you did not pass BOTC, you did not get to RMC.  What if we built a program somewhere between those of Samdhurst and Brittania as a common gateway for both DEO and ROTP? Maybe it is ~20 weeks long and covers everything of BOTC, CAP and duties of a BDF platoon command?

All good ideas but what were still trying to get at is "what's the purpose of officers earning degrees at RMC vice civi-u"? What's the real benefit?

 

[Underway]

All good ideas but what were still trying to get at is "what's the purpose of officers earning degrees at RMC vice civi-u"? What's the real benefit?

There isn't as much requirement as there used to be.  If they actually aligned the degree courses with career advancement I could see a better use from an undergrad perspective.  Post grad, research and other important functions of a milcol are good enough reasons to keep the institution IMHO.

Suppose you were granted a PLAR for all of your CSE applications courses if you went to milcol (which is only partially done currently because of lack of coordination).  Then you could start your phase VI training 6-8 months before Civi U students who didn't have those courses.  Big advantage to go to RMC and for the navy as they have qualified officers 8 months faster.

With some clever maneuver on behalf of RMC and the training system there could be plenty of similar cross overs.

 

[dapaterson]

Suppose you were granted a PLAR for all of your CSE applications courses if you went to milcol (which is only partially done currently because of lack of coordination).  Then you could start your phase VI training 6-8 months before Civi U students who didn't have those courses.  Big advantage to go to RMC and for the navy as they have qualified officers 8 months faster.

Not faster.  DEO remains much faster from enrol to OFP.

 

[observor 69]

All good ideas but what were still trying to get at is "what's the purpose of officers earning degrees at RMC vice civi-u"? What's the real benefit?

That question I am unable to answer. But I have taken courses at RMC as a NCM and from Queen's U.
My vote is for a ROTP program with candidates attending a reputable Canadian university for their undergraduate degree.

 

[Lumber]

Not faster.  DEO remains much faster from enrol to OFP.

Ugh, yea, but, DEO officers are the worst! At least for the first few months/years...

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

All of this talking and I get the feeling JM was right, this has about as much traction as he thought.  Three articles on the news and not a peep more  ;D

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Seems a bit wasteful to close down a campus they just spent spend 200 million renovating only to open anynother campus somewhere else when we have shortages in things like army boots, flight suits, and NCDs

...

8)

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

...

8)

Agreed, but it happened and is done now.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

All good ideas but what were still trying to get at is "what's the purpose of officers earning degrees at RMC vice civi-u"? What's the real benefit?

Exactly.

 

[medicineman]

Seems a bit wasteful to close down a campus they just spent 200 million renovating only to open another campus somewhere else.

In the day, a major capital expenditure was usually the pre-cursor to a closure on a base...

MM

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

In the day, a major capital expenditure was usually the pre-cursor to a closure on a base...

MM

A bit cynical, but none-the-less accurate. I remember a nice bit of renovations and construction at CFS St. John's right up to the day they flattened the place and made an armories.

 

[medicineman]

A bit cynical, but none-the-less accurate. I remember a nice bit of renovations and construction at CFS St. John's right up to the day they flattened the place and made an armories.

Happened at Summerside, Calgary and the odd other place during my time...became a standing joke when I was in Kingston, since it was on the chopping block when I got posted there in '95, just ahead of the Calgary closure after something like $16m on some regimental infrastructure for the PPCLI.

MM

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We used to say : "If they fix the roof, your doomed as you now have cost them money"

 

[stoker dave]

Post grad, research and other important functions of a milcol are good enough reasons to keep the institution IMHO.

I did my master's degree in engineering at RMC (albeit quite a while ago).  It was a really poor program and I have seen no evidence of improvement since.  I am not convinced that is a reason to keep RMC as it is, although there may be other reasons.