Australia's Canberra class LHDs/assault carriers

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Easiest example regards ATC: they maintain that the LHDs can't do STOVL ATC.

Um......if you can do helo ATC, then you can do STOVL ATC.

Quite true. However, one of the discussion I have not seen is wether or not the Canberra's deck is rated for the F-35B.

In theory, of course, if your deck can take a heavy helicopter, it'll take the weight of an F-35B. However, just like a clearing in the woods, the deck must have the "heat resistance" for an F-35B. Here is the analogy: I can land an helicopter in a clearing that is full of dry wood chips and grass. It does not matter. That same clearing will be set on fire by an F-35 doing a vertical landing, though, because you are exhausting the gas turbines straight down onto the clearing from 5 feet above. Same goes for the decks of LHD/A's. They have to have a heat rating sufficient to "absorb" the heat generated by the F-35B's gas turbines without degrading or transmitting that heat to the compartment just below. Not all ships rated for helos are capable of this. I don't know where the Canberra's stand on that point.

 

[OTR1]

A good point. 

Yes, the LHDs, as delivered, have flight decks rated for STOVL heat and loads. None of the fast jet spaces or engineering were changed from the Spanish lead ship, which was specifically designed for F-35 ops.

Also, sometime after FOC is achieved, about two years from now, Thermion is more-or-less already approved to replace extant flight deck surfacing.

Apart from helping with heat effects, it's also very, very low maintenance: current coatings require much patching.

Neither the USN/MC or RN consider the F-35B deck heat matter to be much of an issue.

And yes, I know there are lots of reports out there - especially with Bill Sweetman's name attached - that claim doom and gloom and melting decks.

To that I say.........yeah, well, everyone's entitled to their opinions. 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I didn't have any worries about melting the deck, but rather for the maintenance requirements from the "abuse"  compared to helos, and for the transmission of heat under.

I had no worries about the US and the Brits: The American ships decks can almost be considered armoured and the Brits, well they are building aircraft carrier specifically for F-35B's, so I would imagine its all been taken care of.

 

[OTR1]

I've sent off your question to a friend with better specific knowledge of that, and await a reply. 

A rather lethal riposte to much of the recent published rubbish just went up on the Aust Naval Institute site. Mucho grande fun reading, here  -  http://navalinstitute.com.au/f-35-strike-fighters-from-the-canberra-class/

Kirkhill, I'll happily buy the beer when we stumble into the same pub at the same time.  :nod:

NB: Linked edited to correct.

 

[Privateer]

OTR1, your link is broken.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Privateer, go to the link.

When the error message occurs, go on "Archive" at the top.

Then, select "F-35 for the Canberra's?" in the "recent articles" section on the right. It is currently the number one article.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Commissioning on Nov 28th
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/special-features/the-australian-navys-game-changing-15-billion-warship/story-fnknbqfy-1227130755174?nk=5d272beab1f6bcd236aa3195465e94c8

 

[OTR1]

Colin, yup, they're doing intensive media/PR stuff for the next few days. Most of the ship's brass are getting hoarse from answering the same questions, over and over.......

Privateer, thanks for the SNAFU advice. Not sure what happened, but am attaching a PDF of the article here. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It would be interesting if the US were to subsidize ships like this to be operated by Allied navies, have the aviation side completely compatible with US comms and procedures and the hangers and deck capable of handling the F35C. The US could bounce around a squadron of aircraft that could land and operate off of the ship in joint operations. The agreements and ROE’s would be harder to write than the operation side I suspect, but certainly a way to increase western power projection and spreading that responsibility around a bit more.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Commissioning on Nov 28th
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/special-features/the-australian-navys-game-changing-15-billion-warship/story-fnknbqfy-1227130755174?nk=5d272beab1f6bcd236aa3195465e94c8

And its captain is a former Canadian Navy officer.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

It would be interesting if the US were to subsidize ships like this to be operated by Allied navies, have the aviation side completely compatible with US comms and procedures and the hangers and deck capable of handling the F35C. The US could bounce around a squadron of aircraft that could land and operate off of the ship in joint operations. The agreements and ROE’s would be harder to write than the operation side I suspect, but certainly a way to increase western power projection and spreading that responsibility around a bit more.

That is exactly how the "ancestor" of the Canberra came to life: The US Navy developed, in the late 60's/early 70's the concept of the "sea-control" carrier, which they sold (as the sole customer who bought the idea) to Spain. It became the Principe de Astoria small aircraft carrier, which in turn was used by the Spaniards to develop their Juan Carlos LHD. The original American idea was that these small carrier would be bought in numbers by their NATO partners and would become effective escort centerpieces using a combination of helicopters and Harrier jump jets. The British and the Italians preferred to develop their own.

 

[OTR1]

CO Canberra is indeed a former Canadian naval chap.

Pic attached of the man himself, Captain Jonathan Sadleir, receiving Governor-General Sir Peter Cosgrove for the commissioning ceremony of HMAS Canberra at Fleet Base East, Sydney, on November 28.

Two other pics of the ceremony also attached.

All pics ADF official.

 

[OTR1]

A better than average TV news report from the ABC has the Great Man Himself speaking from the flight deck.  8)

Here  -  http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-26/nuship-canberra-ready-to-enter-navy-fleet/5920668

The helo sequence at the end of was the first deck landing on the ship. Later, a Romeo also landed, and both were displayed in the hangar for the festivities.

I say "better than average" at top because one report in allegedly upscale media said, and I quote, "So, scurvy must be a problem in a ship this big?" and "Can you land a Cessna on this?" and "What's a Chinook?" and so on. I am not making this up. 

 

[Tibbson]

What I found very interesting (and what may have already been mentioned here but I'm not going to go back and look for it) is that her Captain is Canadian (well duel Aus and Can citizen) who originally started out with the RCN. 

https://www.navy.gov.au/biography/captain-jonathan-sadleir

If it's a repeat, sorry.  Well, not really but...

 

[OTR1]

Capt. Sadleir speaks during the ceremony in this short vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM29ZhqwIuY

 

[CougarKing]

AH1Z Cobras/Vipers as another part of the LHDs' air wings?

Avalon 2015: Bell touts AH-1Z as maritime attack platform for Australia

IHS Jane's 360

Bob Carrese, regional vice-president for Asia-Pacific, said while there is no formal Australian requirement, Bell Helicopter is briefing the ADF on the Viper's capabilities ahead of an expected decision on whether to upgrade its Airbus Helicopters Tigers to a maritime configuration.

<snipped>

While the Australian Army does currently field 22 Tiger helicopters, a decision is expected to be made under Phase 3 of the Project AIR 87 Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (ARH) procurement programme on whether to upgrade these helicopters to be able to operate from the decks of the Royal Australian Navy's (RAN's) two Canberra-class LHDs (HMAS Canberra was recently commissioned, while the future HMAS Adelaide is currently under construction in Spain).

According to Carrese, the case for opting against upgrading the Tiger and instead procuring the AH-1Z is centred around the latter having been designed from the outset to be operated in a maritime environment.

A model of the Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopter in an ADF-life camouflage colour scheme being displayed at the Avalon Airshow 2015. Source: IHS/Gareth Jennings

 

[OTR1]

Above article is interesting, but was no more than some noise and light by Bell at Avalon. Extraordinarily unlikely to appear on any Oz DoD shopping list anytime soon.

Pic attached of initial underway helo trials in HMAS Canberra.

Embarked are one MRH-90 and one Seahawk, doing their thing around Jervis Bay, south of Sydney. From there it's to Townsville, not that far from Dimsum's recent AO.

So far so good, but there's a mother of a tropical cyclone with a most infelicitous bearing not many horizons away.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

OTR1:  Do you know if the wings fold on the Army helicopters?

 

[OTR1]

Manual fold, alas.

I don't envy the flight deck crew fiddling with them in any sort of sea state.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Thanks for the info.

Well, it will let the Army/Air Force (I don't know which one operates your army helicopters) ground personnel learn the hard way why aircraft carriers are a most dangerous work environment.