B.C. keeps $1.5b Submarine contract

[gwp]

There was a bit more to it than that. There were some questions about just how successful the trials would be. Previous experience on the Oberons was not promising. Submarines normally don't need escort vessels for trials, unless command thinks there's a significant chance of something going wrong.

It was the first time these boats had been subjected to tropical conditions.  To have an escort was due diligence.  Here is open source discussion from the Commons Defence Committee discussing the engine room conditions.  Other systems were affected as well.

Mr. Bill Casey:
    With respect to the transit of HMCS Victoria from the Atlantic to the Pacific and the reports of heat-related problems: (a) why did the engine room experience such high temperatures; (b) was the high temperature in the engine room related to environmental conditions; (c) was the submarine on the surface or was it submerged during these extreme heat readings in the engine room; (d) are the heat-related issues a fleet-wide problem; (e) was the crew of HMCS Victoria ever in danger because of these high engine room temperatures; (f) what additional cooling equipment is required to allow the Victoria-class submarine to operate in tropical waters; and (g) what is the estimated cost to rectify extreme heat build-up in the engine rooms of the Victoria class submarines so that they can operate in warmer climates?

Hon. David Pratt (Minister of National Defence, Lib.):
    The answer is as follows: a) The engine room in the Victoria class submarines contains large diesel engines that operate, when required, in a confined space that receives minimal cooling air. Like all the machinery rooms in Canadian warships operating under tropical conditions, the peak temperatures were uncomfortable. Submarines pose the greatest challenge in this regard, since, by design, they do not have regular access to outside air. For this reason, along with most modern machinery spaces, the Victoria class submarines have an automated engine room and the need for the continuous presence of engine room operators is limited.

    b) This was the Canadian Navy’s first experience of operating a Victoria class submarine under tropical conditions. The data collected to date suggests that the environmental conditions, tropical or temperate, do not significantly influence the engine room temperature since the majority of outside air introduced to the space is devoted to supporting combustion in the diesel engines. Thus, the cooling and heating effects of outside air is limited.

    c) The highest temperatures were recorded in the tropical environment immediately after the diesel engines were stopped and the submarine dived to its operational depth. The peak temperatures were also recorded in the highest part of the compartment adjacent to the hot engine exhaust manifold.

    d) The temperatures experienced within the engine room in tropical conditions are not unique to the Victoria class submarines. They are consistent with temperature levels experienced in many diesel-electric submarine engine rooms.

    e) Safety of the crew was of paramount importance for the commanding officer and crew exposure to the engine room temperatures was managed by the submarine’s physician assistant. There were no heat stress related injuries during the transit.

    f) The transit demonstrated that, although at times uncomfortable, the Victoria class submarines can safely operate in a tropical environment. The Navy will continue to examine options for improving localized equipment cooling, air conditioning, and living conditions within the submarines as future deployments may include operations in tropical areas of the world.

    g) Since the engine room is automated, it is not a priority for major modifications to reduce the temperature under either temperate or tropical conditions. Options for improving the comfort in the accommodation spaces and operating stations are currently being considered. Working conditions in the engine room will be monitored and the crew’s exposure to high temperatures will be managed in the same manner applied to many of our Canadian Forces members serving around the globe under similar conditions.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

It was the first time these boats had been subjected to tropical conditions.  To have an escort was due diligence.  Here is open source discussion from the Commons Defence Committee discussing the engine room conditions.  Other systems were affected as well.

It wasn't really the first time; the RN had deployed one to the IO before they were laid up.

However, the conditions were pretty much the same as an Oberon was...minus the whole electrocution/balls o' fire thing. We never had escorts with the Oberon EastPacs, although we needed them.

It might have had something to do with the Upholders not being designed for long ocean transits. They were built to run out to the GIUK gap from the UK.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Gee excessive heat in a engine room, next you will see a report stating that oilly bilge water sloshing around might induce seasickness in young oilers. 

Almost every older vessel I sailed on, suffered from high heat in the engine room.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

next you will see a report stating that oilly bilge water sloshing around might induce seasickness in young oilers. 

It's not that they get seasick, it's a matter of being rejected by their food.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I was part of the escort for VIC up the west coast in 2003.  Once we left Panama, she did not run on the surface- she either snorted or ran on batteries the whole way.  I pinged on her every day for over two weeks, so there were substantial training opportunities, but at a basic level, because we did not have the SOA to screw around.

As things turned out- we had a major engine room fire and VIC almost had to rescue us.  It was difficult to to figure out, for a few days, who was escorting whom.

 

[buckahed]

Noticed the public service websites have had some job openings in Victoria the last couple of months. QC, senior hull inspectors, senior machinery inspectors, all for the sub program. Now, when that many people are getting hired all at once for a DND program, it usually means that either the program has been ramped up real fast ( and I haven heard of the subs getting a high priority) or the program is such a disaster that there has been large numbers of `lateral promotions`. Anyone got any bumf from the refit crewÉ.

On <some  distantly related topics, what did they do with Squadron. Leave it at jetty 8 or move it westÉ  and where do they do escape training nowÉ

 

[Sub_Guy]

What training? They were surfaced and a lot of the escorting was done by an MCDV.

Ville de Quebec from Halifax to Panama
Ottawa from Panama to Esq

However, the conditions were pretty much the same as an Oberon was...minus the whole electrocution/balls o' fire thing. We never had escorts with the Oberon EastPacs, although we needed them.

I find it hard to believe that you have much O-Boat time considering your profile mentions 3 years in the submarine community.  Sounds like you are just spreading hear say information out there.

Some of the information you have thrown out here has been a little out to lunch and debunked by several posters. 

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Ville de Quebec from Halifax to Panama
Ottawa from Panama to Esq

And? There were also MCDV's involved in the escorts.

I find it hard to believe that you have much O-Boat time considering your profile mentions 3 years in the submarine community.  Sounds like you are just spreading hear say information out there.

Believe whatever you'd like. How much time on the O-boats do you have?

Some of the information you have thrown out here has been a little out to lunch and debunked by several posters. 

Such as?

 

[Sub_Guy]

And? There were also MCDV's involved in the escorts.

Above you mentioned that MCDV's were the escorts, implying that there would have been no training involved.  When in fact there was minor training...

Believe whatever you'd like. How much time on the O-boats do you have?

I really could care less, and that is the truth, but your profile states 3 years DDH, 3 years boats for a total of six years.  It is 2008 so that brings us to 2002, the last O-boat was to be decommissioned was in July of 2000.  To answer your question, I have no O-boat time, I have never claimed to know anything about the O-boats or sailed on them.

Such as?

Mentioning that the sub ran on the surface for most of the transit, when those in the community know that it is more economical for it to be under the water, and that's how it usually travels (O-boats were the opposite).  Then to have someone come on here and tell you that it spent close to two weeks dived.

This has gone way off track, and the topic is about the submarine contract.

 

[MarkOttawa]

The battle continues (usual copyright disclaimer):

Fight over Victoria-class submarine maintenance contract gets ugly
http://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/20080104110828/wire/national-news/fight-over-victoria-class-submarine-maintenance-contract-gets-ugly.html

REST DELETED--just noticed actual story was Jan. 4.  Oops :-[!

Mark
Ottawa

 

[geo]

"We don't want a court victory that pays out damages," said Hudson. "We want to put 200 skilled shipyard employees at Halifax to work."

Tell that to the St John skilled shipyard employees that were put out on their a$$ when Irving shut down the Frigate program

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Tangents folks...lets get back on to the one in question....

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Ok.

There's going to be a considerable cost from sending the boats around the Panama Canal that probably hasn't been factored into the total contract award. On the other hand, CSMG has probably learned enough from Victorias EDWP that they'll do a lot better on the next 7. Hopefully the extra costs will be cancelled out by not having massive overruns on the refits.

 

[gwp]

Ok.
There's going to be a considerable cost from sending the boats around the Panama Canal that probably hasn't been factored into the total contract award. On the other hand, CSMG has probably learned enough from Victorias EDWP that they'll do a lot better on the next 7. Hopefully the extra costs will be cancelled out by not having massive overruns on the refits.

Travel time/expense of coastal transfers for maintaining the submarines is a red herring.  With two boats on each coast, all of the boats are going to travel from coast to coast regardless of which coast the primary contractor is located on.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

You mean 3 on the east coast and 1 on the west...or is that plan changed again?

 

[Sub Standard]

The eventual over all plan is to have 2 boats per coast so that at least one is running on each coast no matter which boat is in EDWP.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Yeah that is the plan, but wouldn't it make sense to split the maintenance contract so that shipyards on both coasts benefit?

It would be cheaper for the Navy and more importantly the tax payers of Canada.

Sort of like what they are going to do with FELEX?  I guess it doesn't matter because it a done deal. 

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

With 4 boats only one will be counted as "available" regardless of how they're split up between the coasts. The CASAP requirement was for 8 boats for a reason.

It would be far more expensive to split the maintenance contract between the coasts. We'd see the problems with Victoria's refit repeated not only on the East coast, but again on the West as the shipyards went through boom and bust cycles. There just isn't enough work to keep two shipyards doing refits, assuming the refits go through on time.

The problem isn't necessarily East vs West for the maintenance contract, it's that splitting the boats between coasts has a lot of problems associated with it. The maintenance contract weirdness is just a symptom of that, not a cause.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The eventual over all plan is to have 2 boats per coast so that at least one is running on each coast no matter which boat is in EDWP.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[gwp]

You mean 3 on the east coast and 1 on the west...or is that plan changed again?

The idea of three boats on the East Coast was predicated on the maintenance of the boats on the East Coast.  One boat one each coast operational.  One boat training and working up.  One boat in refit.  The boat that is working up or the boat in refit can be on either coast depending upon the work.