"B.C. Mountie's anti-Trudeau website raises concerns about discriminatory views within the RCMP" (split from White nationalism/CF thread)

[Eaglelord17]

I can’t speak for specifics of recruiting in any particular police service, but what I’m hearing across the board is low volume and low quality of applicants, and fierce competition for the relatively few strong ones. Not many people particularly want to do the job anymore despite the objectively quite good pay and benefits. A lot of those that do are… not suitable.

This from last year sounds like Trail, B.C. RCMP have a staffing problem. Even before this topic of discussion started.



From what I understand, it's not just the RCMP.

Emergency services across the country are short staffed.

UPDATED: Trail councillor concerned with RCMP staffing : My Kootenay Now

A Trail councillor says the RCMP’s long-term disability program is contributing to staffing shortages locally and elsewhere. Nick Cashol, a retired member of the local detachment, met recently with Sgt. […]

www.mykootenaynow.com

I would say this is true across the country for many jobs. Skilled trades (from cooks, to millwrights), nurses, doctors, dental hygienists, PSWs, cops, military, etc.

We failed to set up our society for a smooth continuity, basically killing the training from the ground up method which existed until the 70s or 80s and instead just robbed skilled people from other companies/groups for decades. Now all those skilled people have retired and there is no one to replace them. A seriously shortsighted mentality which saved money for some companies for a couple decades but will damage our society for years to come.

Educationally we failed to train or prepare people for those jobs relying instead on driving people into a increasingly worthless degree system (partially due to the drop in quality, partially due to the amount of people who possess said education) and ignoring the basics we need for our society to function.

There is going to have to be a serious change in how society does things to fix this. Unfortunately we likely lack the will to make this happen. Instead we will keep screaming about how we need people as we do nothing to fix it.

 

[mariomike]

I would say this is true across the country for many jobs. Skilled trades (from cooks, to millwrights), nurses, doctors, dental hygienists, PSWs, cops, military, etc.

I think emergency services are particularly vulnerable to mental stress.

In the Trail, B.C. RCMP article,

( A director with the RCMP’s bargaining unit ) Farrer said the average police officers deals with numerous traumatic events over the course of a career and “that stuff takes its toll.”

 

[CBH99]

I can’t remember where I read this, but it was something like…

The average civilian may deal with approx 10 critical incidents throughout their whole life

But police/fire/EMS will deal with approx 1000 over the course of their career

 

[mariomike]

The average civilian may deal with approx 10 critical incidents throughout their whole life

But police/fire/EMS will deal with approx 1000 over the course of their career

I'm only familiar with one province,

Paramedic injuries comprised 15% of all WSIB mental health stress claims in Ontario in 2021. Even though they make up only 0.002% of workers covered by WSIB in Ontario.

And one municipality, within that province,

Toronto Paramedics respond to 20% of Ontario's ambulance calls, while represnting only 10% of all paramedics in Ontario.

Saw this about the Police,

With nearly 30 per cent of Canadian police officers within the clinical diagnostic range of PTSD and nearly all officers reporting moderate to severe stress, anxiety, or depression (according to CAMH), it's more important than ever that police officers receive treatment for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD).

In police/fire/EMS, I would imagine cummulative mental stress is pretty much a mathematical certainty after years of 9-1-1 operations, especially in a high call volume environment.

The RCMP seems to be no exception.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Educationally we failed to train or prepare people for those jobs relying instead on driving people into a increasingly worthless degree system (partially due to the drop in quality, partially due to the amount of people who possess said education) and ignoring the basics we need for our society to function.

There is going to have to be a serious change in how society does things to fix this. Unfortunately we likely lack the will to make this happen. Instead we will keep screaming about how we need people as we do nothing to fix it.

Wait, are you talking about the RCMP, or the way the CAF has trained its Officers since the Somalia inquiry?

 

[Booter]

I'm only familiar with one province,



And one municipality, within that province,



Saw this about the Police,



In police/fire/EMS, I would imagine cummulative mental stress is pretty much a mathematical certainty after years of 9-1-1 operations, especially in a high call volume environment.

The RCMP seems to be no exception.

In studies RCMP members are higher than the others (police) for injury in any studies I’ve seen. This CBC article mentions possible reasons- such as being alone etc.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/police-fire-fighters-ptsd-paramedis-1.4266720

It’s not a competition. Just on the subject of your comment

 

[lenaitch]

Of course it’s ‘discriminatory content’ thats what satire is. The whole point is to mock something.

I imagine the RCMP are the same as the CAF where they are ordered to follow the Charter as much as possible. Thinking on it, legally they likely have to completely follow the charter. The charter allows freedom of expression and opinion, that should be the case closed.

The important question here is at what point can a government dictate where your allowed to be controlled. He didn’t do this at work (as far as I am aware). He didn’t advertise his job. He didn’t directly harass or insult anyone who is directly above him. He has by all accounts acted professionally in his job. Just because he has some personal opinions on his own time shouldn’t equal punishment.

We are in the 21st century. Not having social media is basically unheard of for anyone under 30. We cannot 100% divorce content from ourselves because it can always be tracked back to you. If someone doesn’t have social media under 30 I suspect they are lying to you and have ‘secret’ accounts.

Even things like how people used to vent (going to the bar and bitching, etc.) can be tied back to you easily because cameras are everywhere and it only takes one disgruntled person.

A clear line needs to be drawn between work and civilian life, this on duty 24/7 garbage needs to stop. People deserve freedom from their jobs.

I would hope that every level of government and all of their agencies, boards and commissions expects, expressed or implied, their employees to follow the Charter.

I don't know all of the aspects of freedom of expression as it relates to employment. Most 'reasonable limits' have been interpreted at the lower court or tribunal level and have not made it up to the SCOC. He is ragging on an elected official and maybe that is rightly fair game, and something many of us to on social media or in person on a regular basis. Maybe some review body or court will (or already has) determine that it is okay.

What if he were ragging on on an identifiable ethnic or cultural group; 'I hate XXXs and I think they are sub-human', type of thing? He's a cop in a small detachment - somebody is going to make him. What if you are a member of said group and how would that impact you view of the impartiality of the justice system and how well it serves you?

 

[lenaitch]

I can’t speak for specifics of recruiting in any particular police service, but what I’m hearing across the board is low volume and low quality of applicants, and fierce competition for the relatively few strong ones. Not many people particularly want to do the job anymore despite the objectively quite good pay and benefits. A lot of those that do are… not suitable.

This. I can only speak to my former employer, and even that at a fair distance, but they are not beating the door down in droves. Having said that, the system is driven more now by 'HR professionals' than police management. A friend used to be a recruiting background interviewer as a post-retirement gig. A retired NCO with a solid career, so had a pretty good handle on what makes a good copper. A lot of that is intangible, but there are a number of objective indicators. He would often recommend that an applicant not be advanced, with justification, only to see them in a recruit class.

I partially blame some of the woes on the marketing angle of recruiting. The glossies and videos tell you how you can 'help people', 'build safe communities', 'work with kids', and that you can go into all sorts of exciting specialties. What they don't say, at least at some point in the process, is what you have to do when you're not doing any of those. Quite frankly, if seeing a dead body puts you off on extended leave and into therapy, the job wasn't for you, and to a significant extent, the organization should be able to identify that.

 

[Booter]

This. I can only speak to my former employer, and even that at a fair distance, but they are not beating the door down in droves. Having said that, the system is driven more now by 'HR professionals' than police management. A friend used to be a recruiting background interviewer as a post-retirement gig. A retired NCO with a solid career, so had a pretty good handle on what makes a good copper. A lot of that is intangible, but there are a number of objective indicators. He would often recommend that an applicant not be advanced, with justification, only to see them in a recruit class.

I partially blame some of the woes on the marketing angle of recruiting. The glossies and videos tell you how you can 'help people', 'build safe communities', 'work with kids', and that you can go into all sorts of exciting specialties. What they don't say, at least at some point in the process, is what you have to do when you're not doing any of those. Quite frankly, if seeing a dead body puts you off on extended leave and into therapy, the job wasn't for you, and to a significant extent, the organization should be able to identify that.

I am increasingly coming across members on medical profiles indicating that they no longer have to deal with sudden deaths. Like as part of their medical restrictions.

It is a small amount so far- but what the long term strategy of that is I have no idea. It is unhelpful.

 

[mariomike]

What if he were ragging on on an identifiable ethnic or cultural group;

"Marginalized".

I don't know anything about managing other people. Hard enough just managing myself.

But, I could imagine a supervisor saying something like, "Now I've got the mayor on my back. Negative attention from the media. HQ says I have to take you out of the car count. You'll be patrolling from home. Our contract(s) with the municipality(s) may be in jeopardy."

Quite frankly, if seeing a dead body puts you off on extended leave and into therapy, the job wasn't for you, and to a significant extent, the organization should be able to identify that.

I think it's important applicants understand what they are getting into. "That wasn't in the brochure!"

As our retired chief put it, "The onus is squarely on the colleges, so that not only are people going to be successful in the community college program, but within their first year of employment they're not going to fall into difficulties because of this whole issue of PTSD. Too many horror stories of recruits that have successfully completed the two-year college diploma program, and after their first or second traumatic call, that's when they find out they're not cut out for it."

Also, not to underestimate the therapeutic value of the same permanent partner from Day 1.

Yes, I understand not all departments provide that. I consider myself fortunate that mine did.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I am increasingly coming across members on medical profiles indicating that they no longer have to deal with sudden deaths. Like as part of their medical restrictions.

It is a small amount so far- but what the long term strategy of that is I have no idea. It is unhelpful.

How do you get around that ?

 

[Booter]

How do you get around that ?

By making others go over and over instead. Now caveat- there may be the intention that this is temporary as they return to work or whatever- I am not privy to all the health dealings- and I wouldn’t share that info anyways.

That said- I haven’t seen it re-addressed and amended. That’s anecdotal- so not super useful. But at least one restriction of that nature is several years old now- so it doesn’t seem to be temporary

 

[mariomike]

I am increasingly coming across members on medical profiles indicating that they no longer have to deal with sudden deaths.

My employer had a remedy for that. "Doctor says it's in your head. Not your back."

Transfer to a shovel job.

Called it a "rest cure".

It was pretty effective too.

 

[daftandbarmy]

How do you get around that ?

Develop a twisted sense of humour, of course

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm only familiar with one province,

And one municipality, within that province,

Which one is that?

 

[Eaglelord17]

Wait, are you talking about the RCMP, or the way the CAF has trained its Officers since the Somalia inquiry?

Society in general, it is much wider spread than even the RCMP and the CAF. My trade, Machinist is a great example, most machinists I have seen fail to do the most basic stuff to maintain the equipment properly due to both laziness and lack of training. Things that 80 years ago would have gotten you beaten/driven from your shop because it is simply unacceptable.

I would hope that every level of government and all of their agencies, boards and commissions expects, expressed or implied, their employees to follow the Charter.

I don't know all of the aspects of freedom of expression as it relates to employment. Most 'reasonable limits' have been interpreted at the lower court or tribunal level and have not made it up to the SCOC. He is ragging on an elected official and maybe that is rightly fair game, and something many of us to on social media or in person on a regular basis. Maybe some review body or court will (or already has) determine that it is okay.

What if he were ragging on on an identifiable ethnic or cultural group; 'I hate XXXs and I think they are sub-human', type of thing? He's a cop in a small detachment - somebody is going to make him. What if you are a member of said group and how would that impact you view of the impartiality of the justice system and how well it serves you?

My question for you is does he do his job impartially? Does he show up, treat others fairly, and go home? I could not care less about their personal opinions if they do their job properly.

That also isn’t the case here. Humans are flawed, your going to have racists, etc. in the ranks. And as far as they aren’t treating others poorly they are legally entitled to said opinion.

It is scarier for society to start trying to decide what personal views are acceptable to have and what are not, than simply basing on what actions they are actually taking.

 

[lenaitch]

By making others go over and over instead. Now caveat- there may be the intention that this is temporary as they return to work or whatever- I am not privy to all the health dealings- and I wouldn’t share that info anyways.

That said- I haven’t seen it re-addressed and amended. That’s anecdotal- so not super useful. But at least one restriction of that nature is several years old now- so it doesn’t seem to be temporary

That's the common thread with discussing these issues. They're all personal/personnel matters so any knowledge is either anecdotal or not disclosed by a decent person. I 'know' of a member in a small detachment who doesn't have to work nights because driving and dealing with the public in the dark is too stressful. Regardless of the legislative limitations on the obligations of the employer to make 'reasonable accommodation', the reality is the accommodation is largely absorbed by the other members who, in this case, have to work more nights. I am convinced some people join the job with the full intension of getting a Mon-Fri, 804 job as soon as they are off probation.

The ground rules have changed to the point that, regardless of just about anything else, many public employers are now pretty much seized with anybody they hire. Contrast that to a fellow I worked with back in the early '80s who, having found a religion I can't recall, told his district superintendent that he didn't think he could ever use his firearm. He was told he had a decision to make, made it, and walked out of the door. Personal accountability.

 

[lenaitch]

Society in general, it is much wider spread than even the RCMP and the CAF. My trade, Machinist is a great example, most machinists I have seen fail to do the most basic stuff to maintain the equipment properly due to both laziness and lack of training. Things that 80 years ago would have gotten you beaten/driven from your shop because it is simply unacceptable.

My question for you is does he do his job impartially? Does he show up, treat others fairly, and go home? I could not care less about their personal opinions if they do their job properly.

That also isn’t the case here. Humans are flawed, your going to have racists, etc. in the ranks. And as far as they aren’t treating others poorly they are legally entitled to said opinion.

It is scarier for society to start trying to decide what personal views are acceptable to have and what are not, than simply basing on what actions they are actually taking.

I don't know. Be a member of a visible minority who is one-on-one on the side of a dark road with somebody who has publicly said you are sub-human (my example) and let us know how it feels.

If someone is racist, sexist, or pick-your-ist and keeps their view to themselves, then we never know. If someone shouts it from a mountaintop and people happen to find out who they are, those views become part of their measure and how they are judged.

 

[Booter]

That's the common thread with discussing these issues. They're all personal/personnel matters so any knowledge is either anecdotal or not disclosed by a decent person. I 'know' of a member in a small detachment who doesn't have to work nights because driving and dealing with the public in the dark is too stressful. Regardless of the legislative limitations on the obligations of the employer to make 'reasonable accommodation', the reality is the accommodation is largely absorbed by the other members who, in this case, have to work more nights. I am convinced some people join the job with the full intension of getting a Mon-Fri, 804 job as soon as they are off probation.

The ground rules have changed to the point that, regardless of just about anything else, many public employers are now pretty much seized with anybody they hire. Contrast that to a fellow I worked with back in the early '80s who, having found a religion I can't recall, told his district superintendent that he didn't think he could ever use his firearm. He was told he had a decision to make, made it, and walked out of the door. Personal accountability.

100%. Race out of uniform- want to say they are cops more than doing the job.

 

[mariomike]

I am convinced some people join the job with the full intension of getting a Mon-Fri, 804 job as soon as they are off probation.

Guess you mean 8-4.

Metro Police followed a three-shift schedule: 10 hour day-time, 10 hour evening, and 8 hour night-time.

Our firefighters do 24-hour tours.

We worked 20 twelve-hour shifts every six weeks.

I worked 0700 - 1900 Monday - Friday on a 5, 3, 2 pattern.

Mon, Tues, Weds, Thurs, Fri.
Weds, Thurs, Fri.
Mon, Tues.

But, that wasn't special treatment. We bid our schedules by seniority.