Battalion-level NCO Positions

[CougarKing]

I thought this was the best place to post this after a long search so here goes...

Forgive for my ignorance, but with all the previous posts in this thread in mind, but what CF positions at the battalion and company levels would be comparable to the Sergeant Major, First Sergeant and Platoon Sergeants' positions in US battalions?

Since the CF seems to have only buck sergeants below warrant officers, how do they fill those 3 positions mentioned above- with warrant officers? (this is just coming from my assumption that buck sergeants were always squad or fire team leaders, as in the US case, and NCOs with more chevrons and knockers had higher positions).

That's always confused me, since it seems the Brits and other Commonwealth armed forces don't have many NCO ranks (the highest NCO Brits and the Australians have seems to be the Staff Sergeant rank, unless you count the Warrant Officers). Or should I assume then that the a CF buck sergeant must have the same experience and " non-com presence" that a US Sergeant Major or First Segeant has? It must take quite a while to get to both MCpl and Sgt then.

I apologize if this may have been covered before, if there are any mistakes in my info, and if this seems quite a naive question to post.

 

[TCBF]

Good question,

A Section 2 i/c is a Master Corporal.

A Section Commander/Squad Leader is a Sergeant

A Platoon/Troop Warrant Officer is a Warrant Officer

A Company/Squadron/Battery Sergeant Major is a Master Warrant Officer

A Regimental Sergeant Major Is a Chief Warrant Officer

Various positions such as Base CWO, Brigade RSM etc are positionsor appointments for Chief Warrant Officers - the design of their rank badge will change slightly, but their rank will not.

 

[CougarKing]

Thank you for replying, TCBF.

Interesting.  So the Master Warrant Officer has the same position as a US First Sergeant at the company level and so forth.

The CF gives the same positions to Warrant Officer as the US Army/USMC would give their higher NCOs. Different traditions of course and way they hand out responsibility, as in this other thread.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/29706.15.html

Thanks again.

 

[McG]

Our WOs are Sr NCOs.

 

[TCBF]

"Our WOs are Sr NCOs"

Colloquially, yes, but technically no.  However, our Junior NCO, Snr NCO, and Warrant Officer Ranks all fall under the American "NCO" classification.  We have no equivalent to their Warrant Officer ranks.

Tom

 

[CougarKing]

How about NCO positions as Vehicle Commanders? What is the lowest rank that can command a single Cougar, an M113 or a Leopard Tank? A Sergeant? A Master Corporal? Or no one lower than a basic Warrant Officer?

I heard that in US armor forces, the commander of a single M1 Abrams tank is usually a Staff Sergeant or even a buck sergeant, but sometimes a Corporal/E-4 may be made acting jack when neither is available. I assume the same must be true of Bradleys and Marine AAVs. Correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe using the US example may not be an accurate comparison.

 

[George Wallace]

How about NCO positions as Vehicle Commanders? What is the lowest rank that can command a single Cougar, an M113 or a Leopard Tank? A Sergeant? A Master Corporal? Or no one lower than a basic Warrant Officer?

As those are all vehicles of the past, in those days it would not be unusual for a Senior Trooper or Cpl to command any of those vehicles.  Today, it is usually a MCpl or above that will command a Coyote or Leo C2.  The odd time you may still find a very senior Cpl who has had the Courses and is in line for promotion.

 

[TCBF]

In my youth ( ) Troopers (Privates) were often Crew Commanding Tracked Recce vehs (the Lynx) when the NCOs were tasked away to teach or go on a course.  It made for good OJT, as the first formal veh commanding course was the 100 day long 6A (Tank Commander Crse).

It was OJT until the Sgt qual of 6A was achieved.  At some point, someone pointed out that a soldier could retire after 25 years at the rank of Master Corporal (MCpl) , have crew commanded a tank for the last 15, yet never been trained formally at the Armour School to do so.  In our 'old' regimental cultures, where troops stayed together for years and the young bloods could be mentored and nurtured, this OJT was second to none.  Nowadays, that is not always the case.  I think some wag in Air Force Blue asked if we thought our next 707 pilot should be OJT from a Hel Sqn, and he sort of made his point.

So, now, (and I will be corrected if I am wrong), soldiers other than maintainers have to be CLC/JLC/PLQ qual and have the Veh Commanding and turret qual for the AFV they are crew commanding.  Some of the guys at the 'School' will have the latest 'gen' on that.  This took some time to adjust to: the army said they needed a 'waiver' as they could not course load that many guys on CC courses in a short period of time.  So, they got the waiver - but still had probs running the number of courses needed due to lack of the usual assets (people, time, vehicles - you know the drill).

That sums up Armour, the Inf , Arty, and Sappers will have their own experiences to tell.

Tom

 

[Fusaki]

The odd time you may still find a very senior Cpl who has had the Courses and is in line for promotion.

At least in my own unit, this is becoming more and more common. IIRC PLQ qual'd CPLs with with the Crew Commander course were given permission to crew command, but that was implimented under a previous CO and I don't know if this is still the case. Either way, I've seen non-PLQ Cpls crew command "off the record" because it is becomming more common to run combined LAV Gunner and Crew Commander Courses. While this probably makes the most of available resources, it leaves senior Ptes and junior Cpls with the CC qualification years before they would technically be allowed to use it. The guys are worried that by the time they reach MCPL they'll have forgot the crew commanding side of the turret and are keeping an eye out from times when they might be allowed to crew command.

As I said before, I'm not sure what the official policy is these days, but this concern has been voiced more then a few times around the company lines.

 

[George Wallace]

As Tom said, you have to have the CC Crse to CC.  If you don't you can't.  There should be no problem for the Gunners to remember the other side of the turret when their time comes, because there will be necessary Refresher Trg before all Gun Camps and any major deployment on Exercise or Tour.  I know when I left Pet, we were conducting this at least two or three times a year.  They should have no problems when it comes their time to command.

 

[TCBF]

"The guys are worried that by the time they reach MCPL they'll have forgot the crew commanding side of the turret and are keeping an eye out from times when they might be allowed to crew command."

- 'Skill Fade' is the Great Thief.

 

[CougarKing]

A great many thanks to you all from an ignorant civvy. I wish this emoticon could salute with a right instead of a left hand.  

Very interesting responses, indeed.

 

[Fusaki]

As Tom said, you have to have the CC Crse to CC.  If you don't you can't.  There should be no problem for the Gunners to remember the other side of the turret when their time comes, because there will be necessary Refresher Trg...

I think its a question of "as long as you have the CC course, is the PLQ essential to get the job done?"

I'm not qualified PLQ or CC, and I'm on my gunner course at the moment so I don't have much experience in the matter. But it seems like a question worthy of debate.

 

[George Wallace]

I think its a question of "as long as you have the CC course, is the PLQ essential to get the job done?"

I am sure that you are going to find that the answer to that question is: "Yes".  Now a days you need the PLQ.  Once you have the PLQ, then your Unit starts to employ you in the 'teaching' mod.  You'll land up teaching D&M, Small Arms Refresher, and any type of training that your Unit may want to conduct.  With your PLQ qualification, they now look at you as a resource to use in this manner.  It will probably be the 'requirement' for you to get a Crew Commander Conversion Crse in the future, if you don't have the new 'combined course' that is supposed to be running now.  So, again, I think you will find that the PLQ will be a requirement in the majority of cases for one to become a CC.  With it you will have proven that you can pass a Leadership Crse and will probably have the opportunity to gain experience in instruction, all stepping stones to that CC position.

 

[Fusaki]

Maybe I should have been more clear.

The PLQ and other leadership courses are always necessary, but I was more interested in how it applies - specifically - to crew commanding. I can see how it is an expensive vehicle and an important part of mechanized operations - obviously not something you'd want to hand over to someone who may be irresponsible with it. While the PLQ may not deal with the actual mechanics of crew commanding, I could see how the general army experience would be a desirable prerequisite.

But on the other hand, non-PLQ types fill in minor leadership positions all the time. I'm under the impression that the CC course is more about the technical stuff and less about the leadership stuff. Why not let a guy who knows his CC drills gain a bit of leadership experience?

 

[George Wallace]

Maybe I should have been more clear.
........ I'm under the impression that the CC course is more about the technical stuff and less about the leadership stuff. Why not let a guy who knows his CC drills gain a bit of leadership experience?

Perhaps you aren't getting a clear picture.......you need a Leadership Crse for a Leadership position.  A CC position is a Leadership position.  It is more than technical Gunnery stuff.  It is Tactics, Map Reading, Comms, and a lot of people skills in commanding your crew.  You will also have to write up their PDRs and PERs.  Do you catch the drift now?

 

[LCIS-Tech]

I thought this was the best place to post this after a long search so here goes...

Forgive for my ignorance, but with all the previous posts in this thread in mind, but what CF positions at the battalion and company levels would be comparable to the Sergeant Major, First Sergeant and Platoon Sergeants' positions in US battalions?

Since the CF seems to have only buck sergeants below warrant officers, how do they fill those 3 positions mentioned above- with warrant officers? (this is just coming from my assumption that buck sergeants were always squad or fire team leaders, as in the US case, and NCOs with more chevrons and knockers had higher positions).

That's always confused me, since it seems the Brits and other Commonwealth armed forces don't have many NCO ranks (the highest NCO Brits and the Australians have seems to be the Staff Sergeant rank, unless you count the Warrant Officers). Or should I assume then that the a CF buck sergeant must have the same experience and " non-com presence" that a US Sergeant Major or First Segeant has? It must take quite a while to get to both MCpl and Sgt then.

I apologize if this may have been covered before, if there are any mistakes in my info, and if this seems quite a naive question to post.

Rank Conversions for the CF and US Army are as Follows:

Private = E1 & E2
Corporal = E3 & E4
Master Corporal = E5
Sergeant = E6
Warrant Officer = E7
Master Warrant Officer = E8
Chief Warrant Officer = E9
Command Chief Warrant Officer = E10

 

[Fusaki]

Do you catch the drift now?

It's crystal.