Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

[Michael OLeary]

Bayonets can be in todays terms a multi task item. Still good if you want to be quiet. I would want one in the event of being separated from your unit, might come in handy for preparing food or shelter, and a polished blade can signal.

So, you want a good knife.  If it has bayonet fittings, that's a nice extra.  That argument has been repeatedly been put forth by those arguing against a poor quality single purpose bayonet.

Bayonets are supposed to be dull, in order to minimize reflection (nothing to do with sharpness).  You won't be signaling with a proper bayonet.

If nothing else, they are great to collect as wall hangers. I dispatched a bat that had unluckily found its way into my house, using a bayonet.

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[Michael OLeary]

My first bayonet, along with all the necessary drill:

 

[Fusaki]

If you read LCol Grosmans' writings, you will find out that this is a form of "posturing" that degrades the enemy's will to fight.

I have read Grossman, and I addressed that point <a href=http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28762/post-875155#msg875155>here.</a>

Bayonets can be in todays terms a multi task item. Still good if you want to be quiet. I would want one in the event of being separated from your unit, might come in handy for preparing food or shelter, and a polished blade can signal. If nothing else, they are great to collect as wall hangers. I dispatched a bat that had unluckily found its way into my house, using a bayonet.

And I-6 already addressed that point <a href=http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28762/post-896673#msg896673>here.</a>

 

[vonGarvin]

Everyone's got a buddy in CANSOF.  Ask him if he thinks bayonets are obsolete.  Sure, CSOR isn't the RCR/PPCLI/R22eR, but they are an authority on dismounted infantry combat.

*cough* BULLSHIT *cough*
They may be the Canadian authority on special operations; however, they are NOT the authority on dismounted infantry combat. 

I am.


(OK, I'm not, but I am one of his key staff advisors.  OK, the Canadian authority on infantry combat)


(PS: The bayonet may or may not have its use.  We've heard both sides.  But in the end, we are all posting opinions on the internet, safe in our homes, perhaps even sipping a Crown and Cola.  Who knows?  In Aid to the civil power, or when dealing with civilian crowds in a non-warfighting operation, perhaps the sight of a bunch of soldiers fitting bayonets may get the desired effect.  In COIN, in a third world nation, it may be as useful as tits on a bull.  Just as Main Battle Tanks are fairly useless in most aid to civil power operations, so too the bayonet may be quite useless in warfighting.)

 

[Fusaki]

Fair.

The CSOR is not the Authority that governs dismounted infantry doctrine in the CF, and I am not the authority on CSOR or dismounted infantry doctrine.

 

[vonGarvin]

Just so that others know where I'm coming from and so that they know I'm not dissing Wonderbread:
CSOR and JTF-2 have a very unique and specialised role in combat.  To call it "infantry combat" would be a dis-service to both the infantry corps and to the SOF and SF community.    Here's but one example: infantry often rely upon 155mm artillery to assist them in doing "things", whereas SOF/SF: not so much. 

:cheers:

 

[OldSolduer]

I think everyone knows by now what side of the fence I am on, and I am firmly in favor of retaining the bayonet.
Call me a dinosaur, sure. You may never fit a bayonet on the end of your rifle, but its still an option if you have it.

 

[NL_engineer]

In the current theater, the 9mm has more of a psychological affect then a bayonet/or any other big f***ing knife.

 

[OldSolduer]

In the current theater, the 9mm has more of a psychological affect then a bayonet/or any other big f***ing knife.

Agreed, but this MAY not be the only theater of ops we are involved in. Afghanistan is important, BUT it is counterinsurgency warfare. Conventional warfare is a different kettle of fish.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Because there's nothing like cold steel to turn the tide of 7000 Chinese main battle tanks.

 

[OldSolduer]

Because there's nothing like cold steel to turn the tide of 7000 Chinese main battle tanks.

I get your point. Sarcasm does not become you.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Sarcasm aside, please describe the nature of "conventional warfare" as you understand it in which you believe the bayonet to have such importance and usefulness.

 

[KevinB]

I am a big fan of issuing handguns to everyone, but beyond that, Aid to Civil Power, a BAYONET?  Does anyone think that a JAG would think that a bayonet would be a reasonable use of force continuim segment?
  ASP Baton and Pepper Spray - thats the ticket, stabbing a bunch of Canadian citizens or threatening too?  While I am willing to admit I have seen situations in AtCP that Lethal Force was authorised and reasonable - that was aimed 5.56mm applicable, not stabbing someone.

For those that romanticise the bayonet
If I run out of ammo, there are going to be a lot of other weapons lying around that I would take before I ever resorted to mounting a bayonet.
1 PKM gunner on the OPFOR and your Gallant Bayonet charge just became the stupidest move ever and the OC and CSM are writing a ton of letters, and Ramp Cermonies runneth over...

Plus you've won stupidest PL WO/PL Comd ever award in the current CF history, tough bet in in the limited odds of winning a VC....

 

[vonGarvin]

I am a big fan of issuing handguns to everyone, but beyond that, Aid to Civil Power, a BAYONET?  Does anyone think that a JAG would think that a bayonet would be a reasonable use of force continuim segment?
 

I think I showed my age with that one:  ~20 years ago, there I was, at OKA, to me a "Jag" was a type of car, and ROE was fish eggs. 

So true, JAGs may have good intentions, and would probably advise against the use of them; however, the mere sight of a bayonet-equipped could (on Earth 2, anyway) may even disperse a crowd.  I mean, if rifle-equipped soldiers are on the scene for whatever reason, then the assumption is that they would perhaps have to use those rifles as intended: to deliver high velocity slugs of metal into people.    So, then, maybe, the sight (as a deterrent) would help prevent the high velocity metal slugs hitting people in the forebubbles.


Anyway, I prefer HELLFIRE to RIFLE FIRE, after all, a fair fight just means that you haven't prepared properly for the fight at hand.

 

[MikeL]

There are lots of photos of Occupation troops ( eg: French troops in the Ruhr 1923 ) and guarding PoW's with fixed bayonets. They look intimidating. Implied message to civilians and PW's, "We may not shoot you dead, but we won't hesitate to ( silently ) stab you in the leg". 

It's hard to see, but the attached photo shows a bayonet.

Thanks for the history.. but it doesn't have relevence to modern times.  Plus with all the media an PR involved now, it would be a huge public uproar if they saw Canadians guarding/handaling detainees with fixed bayonets.

 

[mariomike]

Post removed. Sorry for the historical reference.
A bayonet offers an intermediate response between doing nothing and firing upon unarmed prisoners/civilians.

Los Angeles Times,January 19, 2003: USMC
"In a modern context, bayonets are used for controlling prisoners":
http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jan/19/nation/na-bayonet19

In Vietnam, bayonets were used to herd prisoners.
Closer to home, bayonets were fixed during the LA Riots, and the FLQ crisis in Canada.

Se also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonet#Modern_use

 

[daftandbarmy]

Back To The Bayonet For UK Troops

Helicopter gunships and pilotless attack planes deployed for the first time make Afghanistan the most hi-tech war Britain's forces have ever waged.

Yet on the ground it is proving to be doggedly old-fashioned. As the Taliban defy Nato from dugouts and trench lines, battles are being fought at bayonet-point.
The Helmand desert resembles the Western Desert of World War Two as the two sides clash in hand-to-hand fighting.

Whilst many expected the Falklands War, 26 years ago, to be the last time UK troops were ordered to fix bayonets, deadly kill-or-be-killed combat has occured in Iraq and Afghanistan several times.

"To close with and kill the enemy is what we do," he explained. "The bayonet will not let you down."

Each time the British have come off best, thanks to the training recruits are given in a skill that has changed little since the days of the Redcoats.

Infantrymen learn the technique on a specially-restored bayonet training assault course. Sky News was given an exclusive glimpse of a platoon being put through their paces.

"Kill him! Kill him! Stab him in the guts!" screams instructor Corporal Greg Brittain, as an exhausted trainee plunges his rifle towards a camouflage-clad dummy.

This is not for the squeamish. After crawling under razor wire, clambering walls and wading through water the recruits have to detach their bayonet and use it as a knife repeatedly to stab the enemy.
Platoon commander Lt Martin Bowden-Williams judges the aggression his men can summon up with an expert eye. He took part in a real bayonet attack in Iraq 18 months ago.

"To close with and kill the enemy is what we do," he explained. "The bayonet will not let you down."
For the trainees, it is a right of passage coming towards the end of boot camp. Each has his own way of summoning up the necessary fury without the adrenaline of real combat.
"You think of your worst situation, someone you don't like," gasped Daniel Frow as he stumbled off the course. "That and not letting your mates down."

Many said modern weaponry was no substitute for boots on the ground. The grim and gruelling war in Helmand is proving the worth of a six-inch blade with 15 stone of muscle behind it.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Uk-Soldiers-Get-Hand-To-Hand-Fighting-Training-As-More-Battles-Are-Being-Fought-At-Bayonet-Point/Article/200809215098493

 

[MikeL]

A bayonet offers an intermediate response between doing nothing and firing upon unarmed prisoners/civilians.

BS

Do you have experiance handaling detainees in Afghanistan or another war?


Theres quite a few options to handle violent/resistant detainees that immediatly come to mind..

With the rifle -

Jab them with the barrel
Use the rifle butt

* Rifle doesn't need a bayonet to demotivate resisting/violent pers
With your body

Kicking, grabbing the resisting detainee an throwing them to the ground, etc

Oh an zap cuffing their hands, etc

 

[MikeL]

I did not say that bayonets were the only option.

Maybe my english/grammar skills suck, but it seems like you implied they were.

A bayonet offers an intermediate response between doing nothing and firing upon unarmed prisoners/civilians.

 

[vonGarvin]

All I can say for certain is this:
None of us here online will be able to say conclusively, one way or the other, that the bayonet has any use.  I just think back to the horse and cavalry and all that.  The advent of the tank saw the horse cavalry disappear as the dominant arm.  Yet the horse has continued to be used, even in the Afghan war.  Hell, Canada was thinking donkeys as pack animals.
I'm not trying to say "The horse continues to be used, therefore, so too will the bayonet."  Instead I'm just saying that the "bayonet" may still have use, and most certainly, all of us can agree that it is no longer as ubiquitous as it once was.  Perhaps the combat knife is the modern day "bayonet", no longer attached to a rifle?  I don't know.


Though I am guilty of one thing, though it was on exercise in 2002. 
To paint the picture, the combat team had just secured the objective, and was in the midst of fighting off the counterattack.  (This was all live fire).  Anyway, one of the Pl Comds reported in that ammo was getting low, and he recommended falling back off the position, rebombing and attacking once again (We would need the A1 to rebomb, and the objective was still not safe enough for them to move us).  I jumped in on the net as LAV Captain, and said words to the effect of "No.  Dig in, fix bayonets and prepare to repel assault.  Out."  A bit dramatic, yes, and certainly false bravado on my part, especially considering that the "enemy" consisted of remote controlled pop up targets that weren't actually firing at us.