Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

[daftandbarmy]

Go to Radio Chatter for the Zombie tangent.

Milnet.ca Staff

Excellent. Now let's get back to some serious discussions about stabbing real people to death...  ;D

 

[Danjanou]

Excellent. Now let's get back to some serious discussions about stabbing real people to death...  ;D

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=stabbing+real+people+to+death&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
Google search Results 1 - 10 of about 994,000 for stabbing real people to death. (0.27 seconds)

Oh boy this is going to take a while :

 

[a_majoor]

While the official word is bayonet training is now out (see below), one vision of the future most assuredly includes bayonet fighting; Ralph Peter's new book "The War After Armageddon". In an environment where hyperjamming and advanced robotic weapons cancel other advanced systems and each other out, soldiers are reduced to fighting close quarter combat (think WWII or Korea) as radios and data systems can't talk, and advanced obscurants and "cool suits" reduce the ability of Thermal Imagers to see in the dark.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2010/0928/One-less-skill-for-soldiers-to-master-at-boot-camp-bayonet-training

One less skill for soldiers to master at boot camp: bayonet training

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling opted to discontinue bayonet training for Army recruits. After all, the last US bayonet charge was in 1951. But in the weeks since that decision, Hertling has had some pushback.

By Anna Mulrine, Staff writer / September 28, 2010
Washington

When a US Army general made the decision recently to remove bayonet assaults from the array of skills soldiers must learn during basic training, it seemed like a no-brainer.
 
US troops hadn’t launched a bayonet charge since 1951 during the Korean War. And new soldiers preparing for an increasingly violent war in Afghanistan already need to learn far more skills than the 10 weeks of basic training allows, says Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, head of initial entry training and the Army’s Training and Doctrine Command.

So he made a change, substituting skills drill sergeants reported that they wanted to teach new recruits in favor of dropping the time-honored practice of the bayonet charge.

But in the weeks since that decision, Hertling has heard about it. “Bayonet training is pretty fascinating,” he says. “I’ve been slammed by retirees.”

The objections to ending the training are occasionally practical.

In 2004, with ammunition running low, a British unit launched a bayonet charge toward a trench outside of Basra, Iraq, where some 100 members of the Mahdi Army militia were staging an attack. The British soldiers later said that though some of the insurgents were wounded in the bayonet charge itself, others were simply terrified into surrender.

Instilling such terror is at the heart of the philosophical argument for keeping bayonet training, historians say.

“Traditionally in the 20th century – certainly after World War I – bayonet training was basically designed to develop in soldiers aggressiveness, courage, and preparation for close combat,” says Richard Kohn, professor of military history at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Bayonet training is, in short, used to undo socialization – to “basically to try to mitigate or eradicate the reluctance of human beings to kill each other,” Mr. Kohn says. It is one of the challenges in US or Western society “where we have such reverence for the individual, where we socialize our people to believe in the rule of law, and all of that,” he adds. “What you’re doing with young people is trying to get them used to the highly emotional and irrational and adrenaline-filled situations in which they are liable to find themselves whether they are within sight of the enemy or not – and the reluctance to take a life.”

Hertling, for his part, has stood firm. “What’s interesting,” he says, “is if bayonet training is that important and it’s the centerpiece of everything we do, why is it the only place it’s taught is at basic training?

“If it’s that important, you’d think all the operational units would have bayonet assault courses.”

The fact is, there are more important things to teach during a time of war, Hertling adds. In a counterinsurgency fight such as Afghanistan, “You carry an M-4 carbine strapped around your chest,” he says. “You can’t do much with a bayonet.”

 

[Illegio]

Aggression is one part of the training, but the part that stuck with me was the advanced bayonet range - it teaches you to keep pushing when you are totally gassed. Many people have never had the opportunity to see how far willpower can take you when everything else is telling you to stop, and it can be a rude awakening.

 

[PuckChaser]

Aggression is one part of the training, but the part that stuck with me was the advanced bayonet range - it teaches you to keep pushing when you are totally gassed. Many people have never had the opportunity to see how far willpower can take you when everything else is telling you to stop, and it can be a rude awakening.

I agree. Probably the most physically demanding but mentally rewarding 5 minutes of my life. Also gave me a class in leadership, since the whole course was doing the range again if people didn't start showing drive.... I wasn't going to run it again.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I agree. Probably the most physically demanding but mentally rewarding 5 minutes of my life. Also gave me a class in leadership, since the whole course was doing the range again if people didn't start showing drive.... I wasn't going to run it again.

5 minutes? Really?

I preferred the 4-6 hour version myself, especially for the recruits we were training!

 

[PuckChaser]

It was a packed 5 minutes, I can't imagine what a 4-6 hour course would be like.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It was a packed 5 minutes, I can't imagine what a 4-6 hour course would be like.

Frequent trips into the river (must use dead ground in the attack y'know) kept everyone refreshed!  ;D

 

[Danjanou]

Frequent trips into the river (must use dead ground in the attack y'know) kept everyone refreshed!  ;D

Oh like those lovely "walks" in the woods with Fred Wilkes when were young uns?  8)

 

[daftandbarmy]

Oh like those lovely "walks" in the woods with Fred Wilkes when were young uns?  8)

On man, I forgot about those.

The best order I was ever given was by him during a dawn attack at Fort Lewis: "Attack towards the sun" and off we howled like maniacs. I never did check on the limit of exploitation - 50 metres? 50 million kilometers? We kept going until the Americans ran away though, so I guess we done good.  ;D

 

[Danjanou]

I swear that man could find every river, creek, stream, pond, puddle, canal, inlet, fjord or whatever in the Pacific North West  and
manage to ensure it was on the axis of advance. I went to Gemany just so my boots could dry out. 8)

 

[Chilme]

You can't argue that aside from all the combat uses, the bayonet is still a blade, which is always a great survival tool.

 

[Michael OLeary]

You can't argue that aside from all the combat uses, the bayonet is still a blade, which is always a great survival tool.

That may be the case if it's a useful blade that holds an edge, which was not necessarily an attribute of some bayonets. In such a case, it's just extra weight which is not, I suspect, recommended during "survival" emergencies.

 

[Kirkhill]

That may be the case if it's a useful blade that holds an edge, which was not necessarily an attribute of some bayonets. In such a case, it's just extra weight which is not, I suspect, recommended during "survival" emergencies.

Given that most issue bayonets were supposed to spend a greater portion of their life polished than sharpened it hasn't helped the cause in justifying their continued existence.  Having said, that a decent knife, with a point and a hilt that don't break and an edge that stays sharp should be on issue along with a whetstone, and a device for sticking to a rifle (or long pole) should the situation warrant..... ;D

 

[Michael OLeary]

Thats sounds so familiar as we circle the track once again:

First, let’s update the bayonet. We continue to issue every soldier a bayonet that does not justify its own weight. Replace it with a sturdy, well-honed utility knife with a high-quality steel blade. Leave the bayonet mounting hardware on the hilt for the rare cases in which it becomes necessary. Teach the soldier how to handle a rifle and bayonet, but let’s bring in a professional in improvised fighting techniques to help develop a useful combat system for it. Parade square parries and thrusts are only appropriate if the enemy has had similar instruction and is willing to fight by mutually understood rules. The Military Manual of Self-Defence (55) offers a series of aggressive alternatives to traditional bayonet fighting movements, its focus more on disabling the opponent than parrying until a clean point can be made. While not necessarily offering a full replacement to classic bayonet training, it does show that more options exist.

http://regimentalrogue.com/papers/bayonet6.htm

 

[Kirkhill]

"It seems to me...
I've heard that song before,
That old familiar song....."

 

[KevinB]

When I went thru BattleSchool the best part for agression was UA/HTH for instilling agression.
  Yeah the whole Pugil and Bayo training was okay - and when you did 3-1 pugil fighting it was interesting to see if you had weak opponents you could smash them by being hyper agressive, but I stand by the fact I never ever ever ever needed a bayonet in combat.

Ever minute training someone with a bayo could be better used to teach UA and Advanced Combat Marksmanship.

P.S. if that Brit unit actually aimed more and shot less, they would not have been out of ammo and 'needed' the stupid bayonet charge.


I'd rather have a fucking Tomahawk than a bayonet.


And as far as a psychological weapon -- Flamethrower.

 

[vonGarvin]

Ever minute training someone with a bayo could be better used to teach UA and Advanced Combat Marksmanship.

I'd just teach more marksmanship before trying to teach anything advanced.  The troops can get agression 101 with UA, but unless we go into combat in t-shirts, it's not really worth much outside of [insert name of local army bar here].

P.S. if that Brit unit actually aimed more and shot less, they would not have been out of ammo and 'needed' the stupid bayonet charge.
I'd rather have a fucking Tomahawk than a bayonet.
And as far as a psychological weapon -- Flamethrower.

Best part of this thread, especially the part about flamethrowers.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Best part of this thread, especially the part about flamethrowers.

Or, as TV likes to think of them, flammenwerfer.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Tangent alert re: flame weapons:

This week in 1944 - Oct 6th - the Canadian Army launched Op Switchback and crossed the (double) Leopold Canal using Wasp flamethrowers. If you've ever been there, you'd shake your head in wonder at how they manged to hold on for 6 days without being annihilated:

The 3rd Canadian Division's 7th Brigade made the initial assault across the Leopold Canal, while the 9th Canadian Infantry Brigade mounted an amphibious attack from the northern or coastal side of the pocket. The assault began on October 6, supported by extensive artillery and Canadian-built Wasp Universal Carriers, which were equipped with flamethrowers. The Wasps launched their barrage of flame across the Leopold Canal, allowing the 7th Brigade troops to scramble up over the steep banks and launch their assault boats. Two precarious, separate footholds were established, but the enemy recovered from the shock of the flamethrowers and counter-attacked, though they were unable to move the Canadians from their extremely vulnerable bridgeheads. By October 9, the gap between the bridgeheads was closed, and by early morning on October 12, a position had been gained across the Aardenburg road.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Scheldt