Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

[OldSolduer]

You've given me a myriad of reasons why we SHOULDN'T conduct bayonet training. So play devil's advocate and tell me WHY we SHOULD do Bayonet training. Bear with me, I'm old.
And the reason that there will be lots of other stuff lying around does hold water.....do you really think you'll have the time to drop your C& and grab a club or whatever?

 

[SteveB]

No, as a well equipped and properly trained individual, he will transition to his pistol. ;D

 

[Michael OLeary]

And the reason that there will be lots of other stuff lying around does hold water.....do you really think you'll have the time to drop your C& and grab a club or whatever?

Actually I believe for the last few centuries soldiers have used their weapon as "the club" at that moment.

My own comments on bayonet fighting, which have been referenced before in the thread, start here. (Or get the pdf.)

 

[vonGarvin]

Range time is needed full stop.
As for bayo training - C9's, M203's etc have removed the majority of bayonet capable weapons from your entity.  Add in suppressors and its a no brainer as to what you'd rather have on the end of the weapon.
   Bayo training is very awkward to teach - its either done scripted or with Pugil sticks which dont resemble a rifle with bayonet on it at all.
You can quote whatver units you like about the bayonet - and blah blah blah spirit of the bayonet -- your way better off to be competent with the weapons and tools at your disposal - for the CF that means accurate fire - using the Night fighting gear that is issued as well.

First of all, the number one priority should be range time, just as I-6 states.  Next topic.
Bayonet drills do have a place, but I would argue NOT for teaching relevant fighting skills, but more as aggression training.  There is a lot to be said for fighting spirit, and if taught correctly, bayonet fighting skills, along with proper pugil fighting, have their place.  Instead of range time?  Never.  Instead of a run in the elements at -16 degrees?  Of course!  It gets the blood pumping, and I have seen rather timid recruits start to come out of their shells during the training.
As a final point, being competant with your weapons and tools (night fighting, night shooting, basic shooting for that matter!) is part of the number one priority: range time.
Not bayonet skills at the expense of fighting skills.

 

[Gager]

Re: Reserves

We did it a couple mornings during PT on our SQ course but it wasn't on the course timetable. Some of my friends have had similar experiences. Basically all up to the course staff.

As much fun as stabbing a bag on a rope can be - I'd rather have more range time or just time on weapons handling..

 

[OldSolduer]

OK did any of you read the opening post....?????
and not everyone has a pistol....so that dog isn't hunting. I'm talking Canadian Army here, not JTF2 or Delta Force.
The more I read of some of these posts I'm wondering how many of you actually are in the military.

 

[aesop081]

The more I read of some of these posts I'm wondering how many of you actually are in the military.

And by reading some of yours, i wonder if you ever were.

Works both ways pal.

 

[vonGarvin]

A few of us are in the military.  One or two of us, anyway.  

 

[Michael OLeary]

OK did any of you read the opening post....?????

Your point?

and not everyone has a pistol....so that dog isn't hunting. I'm talking Canadian Army here, not JTF2 or Delta Force.

And, as noted, not everyone in a "rifle company" even has a rifle that will take a bayonet anymore.  How many bayonets in a platoon would serve to satisfy your romantic vision of a successful "bayonet charge"?

The more I read of some of these posts I'm wondering how many of you actually are in the military.

And some may be wondering how long ago you got out.

 

[SteveB]

You must have missed my smiley face. :'(
You are of course correct, most infanteers don't have a pistol, though many more do than was perhaps once the case.  You did ask I-6 were he was going to pick up the club and, though he may not have a handgun, he did read an article on-line about them, once. ;D  Further, half of I-6's latest comment was directed towards the Brits tactics outside of the propensity for the bayonet.

Mortarman Rockpainter raises what is likely the only really valid point.  I too have seen good results with recruits and young soldiers with this type of training.  The same result would probably come with any combatives training.  Too bad there are too few resources to ever contemplate that.  Speaking of resources, imagine issuing a C-7 to everyone.  As everyone knows, we currently issue the C-7A1/2 to everyone that doesn't get a C9 or C8 or C8FTHB.  I'm not being an ass here, seemingly everyone knows that the C79 is weak at best and loses it's zero if abused in the least, and now you want to practice the point, smash and vertical butt stroke?  I would prefer to use the time practicing tactical mag changes in various positions under stress, or watching TV.

My final point in the form of a question.  Why is it that it's the Brits alone that seem to be stuck in the fixing bayonets before Charlie team takes the trench?  We have now had a battle group in continuous combat for years, yet not one word on any after action report about the lack of bayonet training.  Ah forget it, I've worked with Brits, I've answered my own question.

 

[KevinB]

Sims's CQB training can ramp up both skills and controlled agression.

  I'd prefer the CQC hand to hand stuff in kit much more than bayo as I beleive bayo training while useful to young recruits (what make the grass grow - blood blood blood etc) is pretty much useless on troops with more experience and training.

  I still suggest getting a CANSOF training team out for range and close quater combatives is 1000x more effective than some bayo training.

Everyone has a handgun dont they 

 

[geo]

At present, CQC hand to hand is taught to the newbies when the show up at their battle school.

WRT Valcatraz, they wer giving it to the troops upon their arrival.... but there was/is talk to move it to the back end of their trade training.  Something about them getting banged up and missing the start of their trade training...

Be it at the start or end of their training, CQC unarmed combat is definitely something everyone needs to learn.

 

[KevinB]

All Infanteers get it going thru BSL -- I am talking about the rather short term CQC course that was going on three or for years ago - a bit more involved than the basic class in bsl.  Back to the days of the SSF UAC

 

[OldSolduer]

To answer the question,  of how long ago I got out.,...well I'm not.
Some of you may regard me as obsolete, however I'm 50 and still going strong.

I absolutely beleive that bayonet training and  CQC are very necessary to bring out the kind of aggression that a soldier needs to defeat the enemy (no matter who it is) in battle. I realize that the age of "fix bayonets, over the top lads" is long gone. I also realize that with the new optics on the C7, some can be broken, lose zero etc if you abuse it. However, if all you have is a rifle, bayonet and nothing else around, and you've emptied your mag, and you're suprised by the enemy, what are you going to do if you have NOT been trained in CQC or bayonet fighting? Just a thought....
Don't tell me to go for my pistol, because I haven't been issued one.
The bayonet IS NOT obsolete and neither am I.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Well done OS,

Agreed. It's just another important tool in the toolbox for anyone in the FEBA, outside the wire, etc etc and should not be forgottten. I have to agree with I6 too re: providing more sophisticated unarmed combat training. We always tend to let that stuff slide during extended periods of 'peacetime' training when we try to make war seem less 'nasty', and then pay the price when it comes to combat.

So, IMHO, let's not forget that when it comes right down to it, some day, anyone in action may have to be able to use a bayonet and we would be negligent should we not, as an army, prepare our soldiers to defeat an enemy with this weapon - as we do with all our other weapon systems.

 

[KevinB]

OS,

My point is you've got 10 mags -- if your out - and have an empty weapon your a dumb ass since you've obviously killed some baddies and have taken friendly losses and should have equipt yourself with a functioning weapon system.

I'm about the biggest training nazi around, and if I thought for a minute that based on my experience the bayonet had a place on the modern battelfield I'd be arguing to make time for it.  However I'd rather carry another rifle/carbine mag or nutsack for the Mg's than carry a bayo -- I have a fixed blade beside my handgun -- if It gets that ugly I will be smashing my NV mount on my helmet off someone or stabbing them after I tossed my pistol at them (what sort of self respecting jihadist could not restist grabbing for a custom 1911 eh?).

I've got a sling, a redimag, a light etc. on my carbine -- I dont see bayonet fighting even IF I where so inclined to carry one as a reasonable option.

  I see a lot of passion for the spirit brought into this -- however we have to look at modern reality -- and the bayo is not there.

 

 

[KevinB]

As for using systems
Our sigs and my C8's (His C8A1 my SFW)

SFW w/ Can

C9A2

Pl HQ

about two days later the guys with C7A2's got C8A1's

Jay4th's carbine from TF1-06

Buddies from TF3-06

I'm just trying to point out while your argument may have been valid pre 9/11 we've learned a lot since then

 

[OldSolduer]

Infidel-6
While agree with MOST of your points, there MAY be a time where that sharp pointy object you are issued is going to come in handy. Don't dismiss it as "obsolete" just because this is post 9/11.
By the way, bayonets don't weigh all that much.

 

[medaid]

(what sort of self respecting jihadist could not restist grabbing for a custom 1911 eh?).

Mate, if you're EVER tossing that 1911, make sure you toss it backwards, I'll be there to catch it... mmm shiny...

On a serious note and on the topic of CQC and all things pointy. I continually stress that CSS pers need basic CQC skills. Don't tell me that a MedTech or a MSEOp is not going to need it, because this type of mindset will go no where.

Leave the advanced skills to the Infantry, but basic CQC, defensive tactics MUST be taught to CSS and PRes personnel. It should be incorporated into the regular training schedule as 1 hour a night for CQC. It will keep the skills sharp and make sure that the troops understand self-control and that these skills are not meant to be used for bar room fights. If they are, they will be charged. Simple as that.

Liability issue? We train our soldiers in the PRes to use weapons, and to employ them effectively and I have yet to see many of them running around robbing banks or assaulting people. Proper training will curb the likelihood of abuse.

Basic CQC skills and knife skills. BASIC.

One Mind, Any Weapon

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I remember that 3-06 wpn well.


No not mine.