Bayonet question?

[Mr. St-Cyr]

The Hague Convention dissallows "To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury." Frangible and expanding bullets and etc are covered by this. Doesn't specifically mention  conventional weapons like bayonets. The Geneva conventions specifically prohibit the use of gas and other chemical agents.

You could interpret the Hague Convention's line to extend to hand serrated or triangular shaped bayonets meant to cause superfluous injuries.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The Hague Convention dissallows "To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury." .

I guess the person who decided "ham omelettes" and "baked orange dessert" were suitable food stuffs at the Good Idea Fairy, IMPs Division didn't know this.  rly:

 

[Jarnhamar]

The Hague Convention dissallows "To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury." Frangible and expanding bullets and etc are covered by this.

Does that mean Canada can't use 168grain hollow point bullets?  ;D

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

Does that mean Canada can't use 168grain hollow point bullets?  ;D

Yes, yes it does. You silly goose.

 

[CombatDoc]

Does that mean Canada can't use 168grain hollow point bullets?  ;D

No, we can. The Hollow Point in precision 7.62 ammo is a result of the manufacturing process. Not specifically designed to wound. This has been previously discussed in one of the threads.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Ah yes, I was trying to play coy with Mr St-Cyr.

Interesting that a medic knows that loophole....

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

This is the only other reference I could find:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5DMNWdSTzI

Watch at 51:00

 

[Pusser]

The rule people are thinking of is filing teeth into the spine, making them like a saw blade, to make them tear flesh. That dates back to WWI. IIRC it was said you would be executed on the spot if caught by the enemy with one modified as such. Could be true, I don't know. I'm not bothering to dig for fact.

This is discussed in All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Maria Remarque (a German WWI veteran).  In the book, he describes the older veterans in the trenches taking the saw-backed bayonets away from the new replacements coming up into the line for the first time (the German Army having jsut started issuing them).  They gave them older smooth bayonets instead.  The reasoning being that there had been reports of dead German soldiers being found with parts of their bodies sawn off with their own bayonets, implying that British soldiers had done it out of anger at the thought of German soldiers using weapons designed to inflict unnecessary pain and suffering.

 

[Loachman]

Please put a little more effort into such things as sentence structure, grammar, punctuation, and proper capitalization, bigsmoke636.

That would make your posts much easier to read.

 

[bigsmoke636]

@ Loachman I edited it for you. Still not the best but better.

 

[Loachman]

The effort is appreciated.

Keep working at it, though. We are picky here, and in the CF.

 

[Shrek1985]

Germans were executed for carrying sawback bayonets because...any excuse is a good one I guess...it broke no rules, but it looked nasty and troops kill a lot of people during assaults, irregardless of status. The brits hadn't issued a sawback in decades at that point, but the practice had been quite widespread, typically either 1-2 per squad and/or exclusive to sappers and engineers throughout Europe. Remember these were the days of specialized carbines/musketoons for artillery, sappers, MPs, ect. No clue as to their usefulness, but the idea was that it gave you a saw you could use, without issuing another item. They were commonly called "pioneer bayonets" and similar in the local tongue.

The practice fell out after WWI because it had become too common to execute legal combatants carrying them.

It's somewhat of a more cool-headed version of the vein of executing flame-thrower operators, though those were retained for their obvious usefulness until PC bullshit, willful ignorance and limp-wristed distaste saw to their decline.

more germane to the subject;

@OP; i'd seriously consider if you are in possession of stolen property. I'd not show that item around if I were you and in fact as it is a crappy knife and a worse bayonet; I'd toss it. Not sell (stolen, remember?) toss it and chock it up to life experience.

As to the rest; it is a blade; therefor it should be sharpened and kept clean and free of rust. This applies to all the bladed instruments in your Qs; including, yes; shovels. And yes, sigh, it DOES make them work better, obviously.

Bayonets should be of an all-metal (shiny) appearance on the blade; this parkerizing (or whatever finish it is) bullshit is asinine and reduces the primary value of the bayonet; intimidation. Bayonets have two roles; 70% scaring the shit out of the enemy; thus making a show of flashing steel when you fix. A pointed rifle says; "I am going to kill you" but that fails to resonate in the hind brain you want to get at. A fixed bayonet says; "I am going to come over THERE and kill you, by exploring your insides with a cold hunk of sharp metal" That does the job; keys right into the natural fear of a mammal towards teeth and claws.

25% is for firming up the morale and fighting spirit of your own guys and it works too; look at history for examples.

The remaining 5% is for a little bit of Close-Quarter work.

Beyond that; frankly the discussion is more trouble in the CF, especially on this forum than it is worth with LOAC vs Laws of War and the limited understanding of both that pervades all levels of the CF.

 

[Flavus101]

Bayonets should be of an all-metal (shiny) appearance on the blade; this parkerizing (or whatever finish it is) bullshit is asinine and reduces the primary value of the bayonet; intimidation.

I thought the reason for the blacking out is to prevent light reflections (much like having a honeycomb on a scope) when at night. In WWII I believe there were a lot of night patrols where bayonets were used. No idea how often this happens in modern times, might just be something that continued on for the sake of it already being in place.

 

[Tibbson]

Does that mean Canada can't use 168grain hollow point bullets?  ;D

MPs use hollow point in their 9mm Sigs domestically but they must carry and fire ball while deployed outside of Canada.  Further down this thread is the first I have every heard of any long gun hollow point but if people say it's so.....

 

[Old Sweat]

I thought the reason for the blacking out is to prevent light reflections (much like having a honeycomb on a scope) when at night. In WWII I believe there were a lot of night patrols where bayonets were used. No idea how often this happens in modern times, might just be something that continued on for the sake of it already being in place.

The pam for the C1 rifle made the point that the reason its bayonet blade was shiny was that when bayonets were fixed, we wanted the enemy to know it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

MPs use hollow point in their 9mm Sigs domestically but they must carry and fire ball while deployed outside of Canada.  Further down this thread is the first I have every heard of any long gun hollow point but if people say it's so.....

Hague Conventions 1899 IV3
Interestingly commonwealth snipers (well Canadian and British) use it but US forces don't.

I'd facetiously suggest that putting something like boot polish, paint, or like someone did to my bayonet magick marker, would violate the conventions surrounding the use of chemical weapons as bootpolish et el on a blade could enter someones blood system and cause cancer  ;D 

 

[Flavus101]

The pam for the C1 rifle made the point that the reason its bayonet blade was shiny was that when bayonets were fixed, we wanted the enemy to know it.

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing that.  :nod:

 

[NavyShooter]

To quote from CFP 317(2) Chapter 6, para 601:

601.  Introduction

New weapons have not rendered the rifle obsolete nor have they eliminated the requirement, on occasion, for the bayonet.  When fire power alone is insufficient to drive a determined enemy from his position, he may have to be driven out in hand-to-hand combat using all available weapons, including grenades and small arms.  Situations that do not permit the loading or reloading of the rifle or the use of grenades are instances when the bayonet may become the primary weapon in subduing the enemy.

 

[daftandbarmy]

To quote from CFP 317(2) Chapter 6, para 601:

601.  Introduction

New weapons have not rendered the rifle obsolete nor have they eliminated the requirement, on occasion, for the bayonet.  When fire power alone is insufficient to drive a determined enemy from his position, he may have to be driven out in hand-to-hand combat using all available weapons, including grenades and small arms.  Situations that do not permit the loading or reloading of the rifle or the use of grenades are instances when the bayonet may become the primary weapon in subduing the enemy.

When the bayonet is attached, no one is safe, not even the enemy ;D

"All around the 1st Platoon position, small groups of soldiers were fighting for their lives. Privates Ben Gough and Dominic Gray managed to crawl undetected up to an Argentine bunker and crouched beside it as the Marine conscripts inside blasted away into the night. In unison the two Paras each pulled the pin out of a grenade and 'posted' them through the firing slit of the bunker. The instant the grenades exploded, the two jumped in the bunker and started to bayonet the two Marines. Private Gray killed a Marine by sticking his bayonet through his eye socket. They were both mentioned in despatches." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mount_Longdon

 

[Shrek1985]

I thought the reason for the blacking out is to prevent light reflections (much like having a honeycomb on a scope) when at night. In WWII I believe there were a lot of night patrols where bayonets were used. No idea how often this happens in modern times, might just be something that continued on for the sake of it already being in place.

I think cam paint oughta fix that up. Likewise burnt cork or just tarnish from a candle, or other open flame.