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Becoming a Crew Commander

Hexx

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Hi All

I posted some questions about joining in another thread, but didn't mention the armour aspect.
And I've searched, but haven't fpund anything relevant. (Found some stuff from 2002, but don't know if it's changed,was mostly a rant not to join armoured)

What are promotions like for Recce troops? I know if you get in it's (likely) Driver-Obs-Gunner-Commander, but are there bottlenecks or is it
(fairly) fast promotion line. I think I'd lobe to command a Coyote, but how long does it (generally) take?
I certainly don't expect to be put in the position on the first day, but is 3-5 years reasonable? (nd of course is there enough experience accrued in that time?)

Thanks for any info you can provide.
 
Hexx,
You are looking....usually... at the better part of 8-10 yrs before you have the experience enough to command an AFV.
Just like each soldier is different, well each soldier is different!  Some are faster learners and can handle the resposibility quicker.
You are not just responsible for the vehicle....you have 3 junior members whose lives depend on your decisions.
Would you be ready for that responsibility after 3-5 yrs....I highly doubt it. It is only junior officers that get immediate command of a vehicle/men...but that is under the tuteledge of his Snr NCMs with, usually combined up to 100 yrs of experience.

Armoured is the way to go .
 
Thanks Likely.

Makes perfect sense, kinda figured it would be like that.
Just that with me being 34 by the time I apply (early 07) and from what I understand about a year to process everything
figured it might be nice to command one before I'm 40.
Oh well

I think the worst thing about being an older recruit is that I'm not even going to be able to use the
"back in my day" lines..

Thanks again for the info!
 
Hexx, you can probably look at it at least a couple of different ways:

1.  Have a goal, nothing stopping you from working your ass of to make CrewCmd by 40.  It may not happen, but then again, you never know.

2. At the same time, enjoy the trip. Don't have CrCmd/VehCmd as your only goal. Enjoy working with the younger "squirts". You may not have "in my day" comments specific to the military,  but I'm sure you have some great bar stories! :)

3. The process appears to be much faster now, and so a full year wait time may not even be a realistic expectation on your part; depending on your individual circumstances.

Work hard, play hard.
G'luck.

 
Granted, my experience is dated, but I was a CC on Leopards 5 years after joining. Having goals is a good thing: mine was to drive the danged thing- that's all I cared about. I got to drive...and more :)

In all honesty, I don't think I had a job, before or since, that was any better than a CC on a tank. I'd imagine the feeling of commanding a Coyote would be about the same.

Be careful though- once you join, it's tough to get the feeling out of your system. I was driving home from work when I heard we were sending tanks to A'stan. I was feeling so sorry for myself that I near had to pull off the road..... and I haven't set foot on a Leopard in over 15 years.......

I absolutely loved the Corps..the job, the people, the tanks- everything about it.

Go for it....and good luck.

Hmmm...I wonder if the Strats have room for an old, fat, broken down bald guy...?

 
Garry said:
Hmmm...I wonder if the Strats have room for an old, fat, broken down bald guy...?

Gee Garry, I didn't know that you knew Likely!  And that he was goin' "back home"...  ;D

(sorry bud, had to get one in on ya sooner or later   ;)).r

I never CC'd a tank, but being a CC and Ptl Cmdr in a Recce Tp in a CRV (Iltis to AVGP/Bison) was by far, the 2nd best job in the world.  Best job in the world?

Tp WO.  Bar none.  You are the Alpha, a Ptl Cmdr, and a CC and...busy.  But its just the best job.  IMHO.

Go for it, and enjoy the ride, comes a day when you are CCing where you might say "dang I wish I could be a driver again!  They have it made!".   :p

Your natural leadership abilities and the trng you are given, along with being assessed along side your peers, all play on how fast you climb in rank and responsibility too.  I know 2 guys that were Reserve Armd Recce Cpl's in the same troop.  Both got in Reg's same time a decade ago.  One is a Sgt and has been in Afghanistan, one is a Cpl that is not qualified MCpl yet.  Different strokes for different folks (with different abilities and attitudes too).
 
Five years?

Pretty likely, really.

Step One:  Apply for ROTP
 
Yup Orval...that was a good one...I hope there is room for 2 of us.
 
The amount of time required to get your crew commanding qualification (I will explain why I highlighted this in a second....) has varied (in my experience) from about 4 or 5 years (about 20 years ago) to about 15 years (about 5 years ago) to about 7 or 8 years now (all are based "on average" years of service.... there have always been "streamers" (guys who move up fast) and then there are the guys whose careers took the more scenic route (to be polite to those who don't fall into the first category)).

'Back in the day....' there were guys who got to crew command well before they were ever officially qualified (and/or ready). This, in my opinion, was criminal (on part of the "system"). Why?? you ask. Before anybody is allowed to push a squeegee in the military they have to be thoroughly taught, assessed, retaught if neccesary, and then the paperwork sent to the proper authority... (I'm exaggerating here, but to prove the point that the military is prone to excessive hand holding for even commonplace tasks). However, in the past, people were allowed to crew command vehicles before they were ever qualified/taught, mostly due to lack of qualified personnel, and there was a lot of trial and error involved. If a soldier was lucky, they received quality mentoring from an experienced crew commander. Usually the soldier would be the loader (in a tank) or the gunner (in a Cougar or Coyote), and the crew commander would take the time to explain what was being done (i.e Crew Commander's Appreciation, a GOOD set of orders during Battle Procedure, etc) and then allowed the junior soldier to take over and crew command the vehicle under their tutleage. However, I would argue that this happened less than most people would like to admit, and many pers weren't adequately trained. And, inevitably, a lot of killed and injured soldiers resulted. This wasn't limited to the Armour Corps, and I would argue that, as a Corps, we did a fairly good job, whether by luck or by osmosis (learning from what was going on around us), but as we became more mechanized, especially with the advent of the AVGP family and LAVIII/Coyote, turreted vehicles especially, there were more and more high profile accidents.

Which brings us to modern times: before a soldier can crew command a vehicle (in the Armour Corps: I'm not 100% sure where the other Arms are in regards to training/employing commanders for their vehicles), they must have the proper training, and receive the qualification. There have been a few interim measures, the most familiar being the AVAMS (Armour Veh Administrative Movement Specialist(?)) Course, which was geared at getting echelon pers and support trades pers the skills needed to move (non-turreted) Armour vehicles around adminstratively (i.e. not tactical cross country movement). At the Armour School, the student s on the Armour Recce Crew Commanders Course (ARCC) are now generally young MCpl's or senior Corporals, whereas when I did my 6A (in 02), we were all pretty much senior (average 6 years in rank, and 15 years in) MCpl's , ready for promotion to Sgt. Most of us had been crew commanding for some time, many having crew commanded on deployments overseas. Then we had the honour of doing the course, and then being told that we were now qualified to crew command a vehicle. Kinda bass-ackward, dontcha think?!?!?

Anyway, the moral of the story is this: once you have done the requisite time in the various crew positions (driver or gunner (of either tank or recce vehicle), operator (recce veh) or loader (of tank)), you will have received your PLQ (Primary Leadership Qualification), and then be slated to take the ARCC (and then the Direct Fire (DF) portion if you are on tanks (I would love to say "only if you are a Strathcona", but I suspect that the tanks aren't going to be exclusive to only the "Army of the West" due to recent events.... you heard it here first!!! [Disclaimer: This is only wild speculation on my part, but watch the news, do the math, and you may come to a similar conclusion....]). I suspect that the average time for this to occur in the not-too-distant future will be about 4 or 5 years of time in. Again, this is speculation on my part, but again, look at the attrition rate, huge recruiting numbers, and it's starting to look a whole lot like the mid-to-late 80's again. I predict one-hook troopers on PLQ's in the near future, if it hasn't already started happening (I'm talking Reg Force here people: don't tell me about the one banana Reservists that stole your PLQ position, disgruntled CFLs (Corporals For Life).... I better start being nice to the recruits around here: at the rate that things are going, they might be my boss before I retire!!!

Hope that helped,

Al
 
Allan Luomala said:
I better start being nice to the recruits around here: at the rate that things are going, they might be my boss before I retire!!!

"Resplendent b-tard" eh...
 
This is making me fell real old.  No mention of crew commanding the Lynx  :(  I did it back in the early 80s in Germany.  Cpl with just over four years in.  Re forger coming up and Tp Leader said Cpl P your crew commanding 60C (I think)..........I went but but.  Tp Leader said no "but" either you do it or get out.  Good old days.  It was quite a learning experience just getting thrown in but I did survive and actually enjoyed it.  Like mentioned previously the experience of taking responsibility for your crew and vehicle was very rewarding for me.  I have been out of the Corps for over twenty years but if it is still the same now get your driving skills and gunnery skills in don't worry to much about being a Crew Commander it will come.
 
Thanks again guys (and of course feel free to keep the info coming  :p )
As I've said, I understand it's a great responsibility ,but I hope I'm up to the challenge.
Being in command of one of those beasts zipping over cross country has got to be an exhilarating feeling.
 
LIKELY said:
Yup Orval...that was a good one...I hope there is room for 2 of us.

Should be lots.  I am only HALF as fat and useless as I used to be.  (I can't afford RATs here at Juno Tower  ;))
 
Hexx said:
Thanks again guys (and of course feel free to keep the info coming  :p )
As I've said, I understand it's a great responsibility ,but I hope I'm up to the challenge.
Being in command of one of those beasts zipping over cross country has got to be an exhilarating feeling.

It is.  It comes with the responsibility too, of the lives of the crew, the ability of your "call sign" to do the job your Troop Leader needs it to do, and many other things.

It is a really good job.  I myself have only done it "in practice" (read with no bullets flying at you, no IEDs, no REAL mines, etc).  Basements and rocks that hide under the water features are fun in peacetime.

Lots of people with the right experience can talk about doing this job "for real".  Folks that have been in both the Regular and Reserve army and know the score with each side, and, I can honestly say, are folks I would listen to.  I did the job on the Reserve side for a decade+.  You never stop learning.  Full stop on that point IMHO.  Someone always knows something you don't.  Learn from them.

FWIW, I was on task to the Armoured School, and was tasked to CC a Cougar from WTP to PV ( ummm  parts of the Training Area in Gagetown NB) 10 years ago.  I had NO time in AVGP at the time.  I was scared, full stop.  Point?  CCs need to know the vehicle they are CCing, inside out, IMHO, before they CC the vehicle.

When/if that vehicle rolls, its too late to accept that you were just a "ride-along" and someone who was both qualifed and competent should have been doing "what you weren't.

Ya.  I WAS scared in that Cougar turret that day.  With 5 years in. 1st time in a Cougar, CCing it from the box. 

Hey atleast I am honest.   ;D

Now...a Bison?  I can do that.  So that statement should show the obvious Delta between Reg and Res Force CCs. 



 
Allan Luomala and others with his experience can talk about doing this job "for real".  Folks such as Likely have been in both the Regular and Reserve army and know the score with each side, and, I can honestly say, are folks I would listen to.  I did the job on the Reserve side for a decade+.  You never stop learning.  Full stop on that point IMHO.  Someone always knows something you don't.  Learn from the

Be very careful about who you say has done what for real.
 
recceguy said:
Be very careful about who you say has done what for real.


Roger that.  Editted  my post (but your quote still has what I changed in it).  :)
 
Allan Luomala said:
Which brings us to modern times: before a soldier can crew command a vehicle (in the Armour Corps: I'm not 100% sure where the other Arms are in regards to training/employing commanders for their vehicles), they must have the proper training, and receive the qualification. There have been a few interim measures, the most familiar being the AVAMS (Armour Veh Administrative Movement Specialist(?)) Course, which was geared at getting echelon pers and support trades pers the skills needed to move (non-turreted) Armour vehicles around adminstratively (i.e. not tactical cross country movement).

AVAMS also inlcudes turreted vehicles at least when I did mine in '05 as I had to be a CC for T-LAVS. Mind you that we have to traverse the turrets manually if needed.
 
Be careful....To CC a LAV or Coyote, you require the 25 mm Gunnery Crse/Commander's Crse.
 
When I said "turreted vehicles" I had a feeling somebody would bring up the TLAV, but I couldn't think of a way to say "a turret that has more than one person in it, like a tank or Coyote or LAV" without it sounding like an unholy mess. I guess "crewed turret" is a reasonable facsimile. I'm sure that there is a definition/policy on what constitutes what vehicles are included in the AVAMS qualification, but I don't have access to that right now.

Regardless, as George mentioned, to CC a 25mm platform (LAV III or Coyote) one requires the Turret Operator's course (the new, all encompassing course), or the 25mm Crew Commanders course (which includes commanding on live battle runs).

Anyway, it is a lot of fun, especially commanding during Live Fires. There's a lot to know, and being properly trained definitely helps, as the pucker factor is reduced, and you can concentrate on your job (shoot, scoot, and communicate) and not be terrified of making a life altering mistake (a training round is still going to do some serious damage to a person and/or vehicle, and a careless move inside the turret can kill or maim a crewmember, so crew supervision is critical). Firing service ammo (the real stuff) can be a lot of fun, too, but that is usually reserved for gun camps when you are overseas (the only place where I got to fire service ammo with the 25mm), or when you are on the "2 way range" (see footage of troops firing 25mm in A'stan from earlier this summer).

Al
 
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