Benefits Cut...

[brihard]

Gauging from your comment, perhaps you are the one seeing the world through "rose coloured glasses" Mr Brihard, I suggest spending some time in an Infantry Battalian and your perception may change a bit.

Nevertheless have a nice day.

Thanks, but I'm pretty up to speed on what's expected of our infantry Ptes and Cpls; I'd be a crappy NCO if that were not the case. I don't think there's likely anything massively different between your tour and mine, or the mod 6 you took and the one that I taught that qualifies you particularly strongly on this one over myself. And if you don't take my word for it- we have several other members above whose experience puts both of ours to shame who have already offered their bit.

If the expectations for cops were on par with infantry corporals, that would be reflected in hiring practices for the former. It most certainly is not.

Everything I said stands.

The only non-compensated expense a TPS officer would  have is the cost of attending the Ontario Police College: $7,500.00.

However, they get paid while training at the college: $53,605.

Candidates classified as Cadets in Training are on full benefits.

As far as TPS is concerned, there is no comparison between the military and the police: "Although we appreciate your service in the military, all current and past members of any military service will proceed through the Constable Selection System like any other candidate.":
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/careers/uni_faq.php#q28

I would characterize the post secondary education that is now very nearly a sine qua non to get hired as a police officer as a 'non-compensated expense' inasmuch as it's relevant to the discussion. Yup, a few people are still getting in without an education- but we're talking about 18 year olds fresh out of (or maybe not even having completed) high school here when we talk about military hiring and compensation. Your 4-5 year cop and your 4-5 year soldier are gonna be pretty distinct from each other on average.

 

[mariomike]

I would characterize the post secondary education that is now very nearly a sine qua non to get hired as a police officer as a 'non-compensated expense' inasmuch as it's relevant to the discussion. Yup, a few people are still getting in without an education- but we're talking about 18 year olds fresh out of (or maybe not even having completed) high school here when we talk about military hiring and compensation. Your 4-5 year cop and your 4-5 year soldier are gonna be pretty distinct from each other on average.

Good point you make about age.

I recently read that the average age of TPS recruits is now 28, with lots of "life experience".

That was a factor that lead to improving the pension accural rate for the emergency services.

Hard to believe now, but remembering back to the 1970's it was customary to run into 17-18 year old guys working full-time as Metro Police cadets.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Thanks, but I'm pretty up to speed on what's expected of our infantry Ptes and Cpls; I'd be a crappy NCO if that were not the case. I don't think there's likely anything massively different between your tour and mine, or the mod 6 you took and the one that I taught that qualifies you particularly strongly on this one over myself. And if you don't take my word for it- we have several other members above whose experience puts both of ours to shame who have already offered their bit.

If the expectations for cops were on par with infantry corporals, that would be reflected in hiring practices for the former. It most certainly is not.

Everything I said stands.



I would characterize the post secondary education that is now very nearly a sine qua non to get hired as a police officer as a 'non-compensated expense' inasmuch as it's relevant to the discussion. Yup, a few people are still getting in without an education- but we're talking about 18 year olds fresh out of (or maybe not even having completed) high school here when we talk about military hiring and compensation. Your 4-5 year cop and your 4-5 year soldier are gonna be pretty distinct from each other on average.

Some corporals in battalion really stand out as having their shit together.  Some don't. Most are just dudes Doing their thing. None have te same responsibilities as cops. I would argue most sgts or wo's don't even carry the same weight of responsibility as a police officer.  IMO for what it's worth there is zero comparison.

 

[Old Sweat]

In the late 1950s the Metro Toronto Police used to advertise in the Pembroke Observer, and I don't think they were aiming their ad at the locals that hung around the MacKay House. The requirements were pretty basic - grade 10 or thereabouts education and 5'10' minimum height.

Things have changed just a tad.

 

[Coynemachine]

I have one question about the benefit cuts, and I have not read all the previous postings but I wanted to know if I have a mortage will I now have to pay rations and quarters due to the new cuts??

 

[Infanteer]

Ranger is not happy that he now has to pay to move Mr Whiskers and Stanley.

Tell me about it...you know how hard it is to get someone to feed a honey badger that subsists off of beef jerkey and camals.  F**K!

 

[Teeps74]

Some corporals in battalion really stand out as having their crap together.  Some don't. Most are just dudes Doing their thing. None have te same responsibilities as cops. I would argue most sgts or wo's don't even carry the same weight of responsibility as a police officer.  IMO for what it's worth there is zero comparison.

I agree... The only time a Sgt, WO or commissioned officer is even in the same ball park is when we are deployed.  A police officer's accountability follows them in every way every day until they retire (sometimes follows them even after retirement).

They go out for dinner, next table over might be someone they busted some time ago for something... A cop never gets to turn it off the way we do.

Comparing police to the military just does not work. For some of us, it is a good place to go when done with the military, but the careers are just so different that they can not be compared.

 

[Gunner98]

I agree... The only time a Sgt, WO or commissioned officer is even in the same ball park is when we are deployed.  A police officer's accountability follows them in every way every day until they retire (sometimes follows them even after retirement).

They go out for dinner, next table over might be someone they busted some time ago for something... A cop never gets to turn it off the way we do.

Comparing police to the military just does not work. For some of us, it is a good place to go when done with the military, but the careers are just so different that they can not be compared.

Teeps74

Thank-you for speaking as 18-year Reservist on behalf of all the Sgt, WO and Offrs Reg Force and getting it wrong.  There is a big similarity, some cops go outside the wire and others work in the rear echelon.  A regular force Sgt and above's accountability follows them everyday and not just on the day's that they sign a pay sheet and turn it on!

 

[Teeps74]

Teeps74

Thank-you for speaking as 18-year Reservist on behalf of all the Sgt, WO and Offrs Reg Force and getting it wrong.  There is a big similarity, some cops go outside the wire and others work in the rear echelon.  A regular force Sgt and above's accountability follows them everyday and not just on the day's that they sign a pay sheet and turn it on!

Actually, I got it right. If you think the jobs are even remotely similar, feel free to talk to a cop sometime. We mostly train, then we go out and do the job for a short period then train some more. We do the job for six to eight months, sometimes up to a year plus. But for the most part we train.

When we come home from deployment, we leave the bad guys over there. Last time I went out for dinner, I was not concerned at all about the possibility of some Talib being one table over.

I do not doubt my own accountability and culpability. These are clearly laid out in our NDA. Nor did I intend my post to denigrate us. Yes, we are accountable 24/7, but see above. But we really are comparing two totally different things.

As to your first sentence... I guess I could express my disappointment, but that would just be wasting my time.

 

[Jay4th]

Teeps74

Thank-you for speaking as 18-year Reservist on behalf of all the Sgt, WO and Offrs Reg Force and getting it wrong.  There is a big similarity, some cops go outside the wire and others work in the rear echelon.  A regular force Sgt and above's accountability follows them everyday and not just on the day's that they sign a pay sheet and turn it on!

Simian, What does his being a resevist have to do with his comparison of our job to the Police job?  Wonderfully condescending.
I agree with Teeps.  I went to Law enforcement college and see no comparison whatsoever to our responsibility or accountability when compared to a police officer.  The only time its even close is while depoyed.  Even then, a little white card tells me what to do. 
Surely someone will say "but if we make a mistake, people get injured or die".  This is true on operations, however it is other trained soldiers at risk from our errors.  Not the general public.
    The police officer on the other hand has to think about the entire Criminal Code of Canada, half dozen other Federal Acts, Prov or Muni statutes, and of course departmental policies.  He is responsible for the safety of a helpless populace.  Every action he takes or doesn't has to be defendable in court.  His handling of evidence and his notes decides whether chid molesters, wife beaters, drug dealers go free and do it again, or go to jail.
     

I love being an Infantry Sgt, but nothing I do, face, or put on the line equals what a cop does every shift.  There just simply is no comparison.

 

[Gunner98]

There you go again with the 'we' broad brush.  We are all soldiers first, but  I guess as a member of the Health Services, we see some of our patients every day.  If you are only looking for the adversarial side (shoot-em-up) of what being a cop is then I get it.  My point is I don't train to do my job some of the time, I do my job everyday whether in garrison or in the field and your secrets are safe with me even if I see you at the table next to me in the restaurant.  I am accountable for what I do everyday not just while I am on deployment. Trust me in the health services if we get it wrong someone might be injured or die.  We don't need to hunt bad guys, they find you and make you our patients.

 

[Harris]

Any chance we can keep the discussion back on topic please?

Army.ca Mod.

 

[dapaterson]

I have one question about the benefit cuts, and I have not read all the previous postings but I wanted to know if I have a mortage will I now have to pay rations and quarters due to the new cuts??

Under the new rules quarters will continue to be provided; rations will not.

 

[wesleyd]

I agree... The only time a Sgt, WO or commissioned officer is even in the same ball park is when we are deployed.  A police officer's accountability follows them in every way every day until they retire (sometimes follows them even after retirement).

Umm... how many police officers are directly responsible for the safety of 200-300 pers 24 hours a day 7 days a week? When a ship goes to sea, not just deployments, there are many senior NCO's that through there action or inaction can directly affect the lives of all people on board. I dont get to turn off a bad decision when I go home, whenver that may be. All CF members are accountable 24/7 and we are expected to give our lives if required without question. Police officers are not expected to give their lives for the greater good.
The jobs themselves may vary differently but to say that CF members get to turn it off and that they do not share a similar level of responsibity is not accurate.
I would say that when deployed CF members have a greater level of responsibility, not only are they accountable for their actions while on patrol, those actions can follow them for a lifetime. Not just senior NCO's either. All soldiers have to make split second decisions on whether they kill a person or not much like police officers do. All the while having to follow their Rules of Engagment. If in that spit second they make the wrong decision that will follow them for a lifetime. Soldiers are trained to kill or be killed for their country, police officers are trained to uphold the law and protect themselves and other immediatly around them. To say that our level of accountablitly is less than ANYONE take the time and talk to someone with PTSD from some of the things they have had to do or have seen through the course of a carreer, then tell me their actions dont follow them well into retirement, or that they can "turn it off' while at dinner with their family. If they still have one.

 

[Harris]

Wesleyd - What part of back on topic did you not understand?

If you want to discuss Police vs Army make a new thread.

Army.ca Staff.

 

[wesleyd]

Wesleyd - What part of back on topic did you not understand?

If you want to discuss Police vs Army make a new thread.

Army.ca Staff.

apologies
end rant

 

[cdnnvyguy]

1.  IR serves a purpose.  Agreed that some pers have abused it, but the reality is that this will hurt a lot of pers on IR.  I agree that more notice could have been given, rather than 30 days plus or minus a few.  Note to all:  I've never been on IR.  This is my opinion on what is simply right to do, be it for any elimination of a benefit.  A good example of how the CF/DND handled the elimination of a policy was the PLD issue.  I had lots of notice that I was going to have it reduced and lots of notice that I wouldn't get it where I was being posted to.  Thus, this sufficient notice allowed me to properly plan.

2.  The reason why I quoted Cdn Aviator is his comment in regards to "planning better" in regards to the need for MLI.  Here's my situation.  Was in a reasonable house.  Not a mansion.  Just a three bedroom house.  Happily paying my mortgage and all bills.  Nobody gave me a dime for anything I have today as I lost both my parents when I was a child.  Thus, it wasn't like I had money flowing out of my ***.  Then I was posted to an area where the real estate market is considerably costlier.  I bought a smaller house in the new location for $70,000 more than my previous house.  It wasn't like I said, "hey, let's pay more money for a smaller house than what we had before".  Also, I bought the home outside of the normal area where mil pers buy so that I could keep the cost down (thus, planned to mitigate the increased costs).  The increase in mortgage resulted in an increase in the CMHC fees that I had to incur.  So, how would "planning better" help here?  The reality is that the military posted me and I never complained.  I followed my orders and moved.  Should I have bought a trailer and moved my family into that?  I'm being sarcastic because you can't make generalities such as "plan better" because sometimes your personal situation just doesn't allow for it.

Very well said! "planning better" seems to be spin word of senior personnel who already have significant salaries and "perks" of the job. It’s hard as a spec killick in Ottawa; I don't honestly know how the private clerk in my orderly room survives.

I do however know friends working for Transport Canada who are in "imposed restriction" positions and they make significantly more to do so, again the RCMP receive significantly more for similar postings.

Having said this we all know there are many fat cats sucking on the government tit and abusing IR. Having a wife and not wanting to sell your house back home is not justification for going on IR, however it doesn’t seem to be an issue when you hit a certain rank level.

The sad part is that the people this will hurt most are the most vulnerable members, the most junior… who don’t forget, is every one of our responsibilities to look out for their welfare.
 

 

[aesop081]

Very well said! "planning better" seems to be spin word of senior personnel who already have significant salaries and "perks" of the job.

I am the one who said "plan better" on here. Clearly i am very senior and have lots of perks.

:

who don’t forget, is every one of our responsibilities to look out for their welfare.

I am aware of what my responsabilities are but thanks for comming out anyways.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Under the new rules quarters will continue to be provided; rations will not.

I foresee the kitchen services taking a huge hit to their incoming cash over this.
I can't imagine many people previously on IR choosing to pay the ridiculous amount 'Rations  charges people.
I wonder if they will raise the cost of what members are paying now to make up for the losses.

 

[TCM621]

Plan better is all well and good when you have a choice. Just to use my case as an example, I was prohibited posted one day before I left to go on what was supposed to be a TD course. At no time was there any other option given. I know a fair number of people who have been posted with a couple of weeks notice. You can't sell a house in that time frame. If your spouse is a professional of any kind a month's notice to find a replacement is considered the norm.

Yes people abuse IR. But rather than kill everything at once with no notice how about just administer it right? In the past week I have talked to a bunch of people who will not be able to feed their families if this goes through without amendment. I personally couldn't afford it for more than a month or two without seriously destroying what little financial health I have.