Best Air Support ?

[Loachman]

Attack Helicopters and CAS aircraft are two different things. AHs are manoeuvre elements. They are anti-tank/anti-personnel vehicles with rotors rather than wheels or tracks. They require complete integration into a Commander's plan in order to maximize their value.

If everything followed the laws of nature and logic, our battlefield helicopters would be Army rather than a** f**ce and the distinction would not be so blurred.

 

[geo]

Loachman....
in the US, during GW1, the A10s were, I believe, part of the Army - not sexy enough for the Air jocks.  However, once the A10s caused mayhem and destruction galore, it suddenly became an item of interest for the Air Force.  They're still flying and are of great use................

 

[Fishbone Jones]

IIRC, all the A-10's went to the National Guard inventory. I'm also pretty sure it was the Air NG that got them, not the Army. APS, none are currently held by the Reg Force. It was a long time ago I had the discussion, but that's what I recall.

 

[bison33]

geo....what recceguy said...the warthogs were never army......they are national guard toys...which is too bad. Saying that, when in combat, they(pilots and planes) are assigned to the army as an air asset. Many USAF brass want the hog scrapped (too good at it's role, doesn't fly high enough, not expensive enough...who knows)...the army should gladly take them off the hands of the USAF then. The hog was built for the USAF because they basically were competing with the army(money comes to mind) when they were looking at the cheyenne AH, which never got off the ground (round 1 to the USAF).
Back to the topic...only time you'll see a gunship in Canada is at an airshow......

 

[geo]

still a nice piece of kit....

 

[honestyrules]

What about some Cobras variants? OK not as high tech as the Apache, but probably a lot cheaper (they have Hellfire capability too).
I can hear something like "Cobras are from the Vietnam era" or something of that nature.

Then for the A-10, am I dreaming or they have the tendency to be involved in "friendly fire" episodes? OK, it's not the aircraft that pulls the trigger...

Just my 2 cents...

Del

Edited for spelling..

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Then for the A-10, am I dreaming or they have the tendency to be involved in "friendly fire" episodes?

Only because they currently provide the bulk of the CAS available in Afghanistan...  They're the only US fast air actually based in the country.

 

[28402 engineers]

I'm new to this site, so my thoughts on this issue probably won't matter, but here's my opinion. i'm not sure that Canada has the money or the inclination to buy any hardcore AH's, like the AH-64. however, as i believe someone has already pointed out, another wise choice would be the AH-1J, or super cobra. the super cobra is lighter, faster, and cost less than the Apache, at least i think so. Plus it has hellfire capability, so that's a big bonus as a tank hunter. it can also be equipped with TOW missiles, in case the army doesn't want to go through the extra cost of buying sufficient amounts of hellfire missiles. Don't they cost like $70,000 a piece? anyway, i digress. we need something to fill the gap in the direct fire lines, since the government is probably going to retire our beloved leopard. The new MGS doesn't look like it'll cut the mustard in my opinion, so i think we should definitely buy an AH or maybe some sort of attack plane like the A-10. somebody said that the Americans would be scrapping them soon, so we should take a few off their hands. maybe 50 or more?
anyway, this is just the opinion of a second-year army cadet from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
cheers,
2842 engineer

 

[Armymedic]

Through 9 pages of replies, not a single post on why Canada would need, or even use an AC130. Has any Canadian troops (conventional, not SF) even been allotted a Spectre GS for a mission in the last 2 yrs?

Lets not waste our finite resources on a wpns platform that is for a specific use. We simple do not have a need to have AC130s in our arsenal.

 

[Kirkhill]

Through 9 pages of replies, not a single post on why Canada would need, or even use an AC130. Has any Canadian troops (conventional, not SF) even been allotted a Spectre GS for a mission in the last 2 yrs?

Lets not waste our finite resources on a wpns platform that is for a specific use. We simple do not have a need to have AC130s in our arsenal.

What exactly does an AC-130 do?  Doesn't it just deposit high energy packages on obstacles causing the obstacles to disappear?  Aren't there other means available to deliver those packages and remove the obstacles?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If we had to choose between the A10 and attack helicopters, I think I will take the A10, faster response time, bigger payload and a good loiter time.

I would certainly like Canada to look at an updated A10 aircraft if they start building one to replace the US ones.

 

[28402 engineers]

yes the A-10 has a bigger payload, more powerfull and tougher than your average AH, but isn't an AH more convenient? the Ah-1J has a variant that can be based at sea. incidentally, its called the Sea Cobra. this would be a great addition to our navy, which has been using those old Sea Kings to the limit. it would take some stress off of the sea kings and probably do a better job as a anti-ship helicopter than the Sea King. plus, it could be an emergency direct fire weapon for the army. all we'd have to do is call one of our ships, request mobile direct fire support on such-and-such coordinates, and BAM! :akimbo  no more threat. and it would be a great way to support our recce troops, by falling in about a mile behind the Coyotes, just in case they need to get out in a hurry, the AHs can fly ahead and keep the enemy occupied while the recce's make a run for it. correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, please. bear in mind I'm only 14.

 

[aesop081]

. this would be a great addition to our navy, which has been using those old Sea Kings to the limit. it would take some stress off of the sea kings and probably do a better job as a anti-ship helicopter than the Sea King.

You have no idea what a sea king does do you ?

Cbra gunship hellicopters are not capable of doing the entire spectrum of tasks assigned to the MH community........cobras can't do ASW or any complicated ASuW...

Back in your lane kid.....

 

[geo]

hehe... cut him some slack aviator.... he's a newbie.

All in all, the Helo platforms we currently posess are not well suited for a "gunship" role PERIOD

My choice would be the A10 "as is" because it's relatively low tech but has proven itself to be dependable while deployed in areas with limited service facilities.

 

[Dale Denton]

What about blackhawks? Since they're used by soo many countries, you think they might be a good idea? What of the Sea Stallion (CH-53 i think), but CASR said they weren't good in hot and dry environments....then again CASR loves Russia so i don't know. How do you people feel about CASR anyways? Is it any good, do they know what they're talking about?

anyways I'm a noob so cut me some slack too please?

 

[toglmonster]

When I started this thread I thought with new Hercules in the pipe line it would be a good idea to convert some of our old Hercules into AC 130 gunships, great for close air support and counter insurgency operation. The type of missions we're doing  in Afghanistan. The great thing about the AC-130 is it's 105mm howitzer, think of it as a flying tank, direct fire very accurate and there when you need it. unlike laser guided or satellite guided bombs there's no chance of over shooting your target or dropping the bomb too soon. The Paveway and other systems like it can only do so much to keep your weapons on target. However as a number of people stated the airframe's on our old He rules are just plane worn out and there was no point trying to convert then (point taken, thank you for the info). OK so buy new AC-130's Also it's true the AC 130 is a very  special bird it's only good for one thing close air support. The A-10 on the other hand is a more well rounded aircraft better armoured, good at close air support and killing armour. The A-10 flies slower then other jets but it still has had problems with laser guided we opens. You could use the A-10 in a direct fire role armed with the AGM-65 Maverick but how much does an Maverick round cost  compared with an 105 mm howitzer round. In short our troops should have there own air support and deserve the best the AC 130 is the way to go.

 

[geo]

part of the question / answer lies with how effective are we with the new M777 155s.  Who needs a lousy little 105 when you can reach out and touch someone with something like the engine block of a VW.

think that the AC130s are too big and too specialized - and would require their own escorts - VS something like an A10 that can stand alone in CAS or provide escort duty to Heliborne transports.

Another aircraft could be a Harrier VTOL - a bit pricier, a bit more high tech and thus harder to support in remote locations - without the big baggage train in support.

 

[George Wallace]

Geo

I think that those points have been covered extensively in this discussion, but young toglmonster doesn't want to listen to them.  Obviously he doesn't want to listen to the words of experience or just isn't reading the discussion from start to finish.

 

[geo]

yeah - you're probably right

 

[toglmonster]

Young, thank you best complament I've had in years. Gentlemen this is a forum to discuss ideas and yes I'm a bit obsessed with the AC-130. I think most of us have a pet weapon system (just look at the Tankers). Just wanted to make my position clear. Your right drop an M777 close to the action and shell the %@#!* out of them. Planning it's all in the planning. Guss I'll throw my hat in with the A-10 crowd now. PS just kidding Tankers.