Better system instead of Cl A pay sheets

[Scott]

I believe the gentleman you're trying to shame hasn't been active on this forum in close to five years. What do we call that - a "necro-taunt"?

Thanks for caring. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy during the holidays. However, I was referring to this:

Another scenario pay sheet versus swipe card:

My signature changes monthly, that would still be difficult to verify if it's actually me signing in regardless of the method.

What then?

And if you read my reply as a taunt when I was trying to be humorous in the face of a pretty silly statement...ho-hum. But thanks for that concern.

 

[Journeyman]

Thanks for caring.

Now that's a taunt.....well, a sarcastic mocking if nothing else.

And the literate among us see that all the applicable posts are from.......today.

 

[PanaEng]

Alright stop posting about Monitor MASS, not everyone in a Reserve Unit has access to it... ideally everyone would but most units have a serious lack of IT resources.

Also keep posting about MM and you will be introduced to the warning system very very fast.

Monitor MASS, MM...
There, I feel better now

In my unit we are trying to use MM for capturing pretty much everything. All the Sect Comd and up and most of the 2i/c have had trgand have access to it (not all at the same time unfortunately). However, pay still requires signature and therefore pay-sheets but we consolidate them by sub-unit or task and, therefore, reducing the number - the clerks still have to enter each line though.

CHIMO!
Frank

 

[Cadwr]

The Doom clock is ticking on the use of one's signature as a proof of identity anywhere, pay sheets or otherwise.

You know, since they no longer teach cursive handwriting in schools.  At least in Ontario. 

/tangent off

 

[jpjohnsn]

I suppose submitting pay on paper with signatures works just as well as any other method - and probably more cheaply - if it's all handled in-house but for those of us in the CIC, getting paid on time often seems to have the same odds as hitting the lottery.  We have to mail or courier our sheets to our Det or RCSU HQ and, assuming we have correctly filled them out and they receive them on time (and I've been told on more than one occasion that they never arrived despite having a proof of delivery signature), and we've sacrificed the correct number of doves and sheep to the Pay Gods, it is still by no means certain that pay will be in your account at the end of the month.

I'm not sure what the best solution might be but, for some of us, paper certainly doesn't appear to be it.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Create everything in Monitor Mass. Create list of authorized persons to attend. Have some quick and easy method to sign in (swipe card, RFID tag reader like many building access cards, finger print, whatever). System checks off people from activity as they swipe in and authorizes their pay for that half day.

It remains, as it always has been, the CoC's responsibility to ensure their personnel are there and are gainfully employed. In the Reg Force nobody signs in, and if people are not showing up for work you can bet they are either disciplined or the CoC is disciplined for not keeping track of their pers.

 

[George Wallace]

Create everything in Monitor Mass. Create list of authorized persons to attend. Have some quick and easy method to sign in (swipe card, RFID tag reader like many building access cards, finger print, whatever). System checks off people from activity as they swipe in and authorizes their pay for that half day.

It remains, as it always has been, the CoC's responsibility to ensure their personnel are there and are gainfully employed. In the Reg Force nobody signs in, and if people are not showing up for work you can bet they are either disciplined or the CoC is disciplined for not keeping track of their pers.

Are you at all familiar with the Reserve Pay System?

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Are you at all familiar with the Reserve Pay System?

Yes George, I am. Now, have you been in recently enough that your experience is at all relevant?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Create everything in Monitor Mass. Create list of authorized persons to attend. Have some quick and easy method to sign in (swipe card, RFID tag reader like many building access cards, finger print, whatever). System checks off people from activity as they swipe in and authorizes their pay for that half day.

It remains, as it always has been, the CoC's responsibility to ensure their personnel are there and are gainfully employed. In the Reg Force nobody signs in, and if people are not showing up for work you can bet they are either disciplined or the CoC is disciplined for not keeping track of their pers.

Troops, NCOs and Officers are always forgetting to sign the pay sheets.  (Forgetting to sign something that means they will get paid relatively on time..)
People will be constantly loosing swipe cards and I can't imagine getting replacement cards in the reserves would be easy.  With the high turn over of reservists I don't think an expensive system to track them signing in will work.  We're having a hard time issuing soldiers email accounts in the reg force due to cutbacks,  last I heard it was like a month wait.  This would be a nightmare in Monitor Mass.

 

[George Wallace]

Yes George, I am. Now, have you been in recently enough that your experience is at all relevant?

Yes. I have, and I find your knowledge and experience to be quite faulty, leading to totally unworkable solutions, but that is only my opinion. 

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Troops, NCOs and Officers are always forgetting to sign the pay sheets.  (Forgetting to sign something that means they will get paid relatively on time..)
People will be constantly loosing swipe cards and I can't imagine getting replacement cards in the reserves would be easy.  With the high turn over of reservists I don't think an expensive system to track them signing in will work.  We're having a hard time issuing soldiers email accounts in the reg force due to cutbacks,  last I heard it was like a month wait.  This would be a nightmare in Monitor Mass.

Most places require ID badges in buildings now, many of them have RFID tags. If you don't have it, lost it, or forgot it, then go to the OR and have them check you as in on the system.

In many of the places I've worked you can't even get into the building (or better yet, out of the building) without a keycard.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Yes. I have, and I find your knowledge and experience to be quite faulty, leading to totally unworkable solutions, but that is only my opinion.

I find your opinions stodgy and defeatist. If you had the same "it can't be done" attitude as an NCO then you probably weren't a very good one.

 

[The_Falcon]

Most places require ID badges in buildings now, many of them have RFID tags. If you don't have it, lost it, or forgot it, then go to the OR and have them check you as in on the system.

In many of the places I've worked you can't even get into the building (or better yet, out of the building) without a keycard.

Larger facilities may require access cards, most armouries do not.

I find your opinions stodgy and defeatist. If you had the same "it can't be done" attitude as an NCO then you probably weren't a very good one.

Keep it on point..there will be no other warnings.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Jarnhamar]

Most places require ID badges in buildings now, many of them have RFID tags. If you don't have it, lost it, or forgot it, then go to the OR and have them check you as in on the system.

In many of the places I've worked you can't even get into the building (or better yet, out of the building) without a keycard.

That works for places like NDHQ but how much would it cost to install this at the many reserve units that are an hour away from any full time base facility.  Then there is the money for installing these systems, money for servicing them and repairing them. 


On the other hand something like this would probably help with the issue of pay clerks not inputting the pay sheets in a timely manner.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

That works for places like NDHQ but how much would it cost to install this at the many reserve units that are an hour away from any full time base facility.  Then there is the money for installing these systems, money for servicing them and repairing them. 


On the other hand something like this would probably help with the issue of pay clerks not inputting the pay sheets in a timely manner.

It would speed up a lot of the process, and it would make things much easier to track and database. When I filed for the reserve pension buyback I had to sit down with dozens of sheets with hundreds ticks in them to find out the days I worked. And then the staff doing the pensions took 4 - 6 YEARS going through the backlog. How much did THAT cost?

You'd be surprised how cheap this system would be when you add up the relative costs of how we are doing it now. Don't forget that RMS clerk time is money too. Sad as it is, in today's force every person year an RMS clerk spends counting pay ticks is a person year the CF loses in it's core operational goals.

 

[George Wallace]

Most places require ID badges in buildings now, many of them have RFID tags. If you don't have it, lost it, or forgot it, then go to the OR and have them check you as in on the system.

In many of the places I've worked you can't even get into the building (or better yet, out of the building) without a keycard.

Class A Reservists do not get issued ID badges with RFID tags for buildings, even in the NCR.  Keycards for Class A Reservists......not likely to happen, as there is no requirement for 90% or more of them to enter classified areas.  "Lost or can't find your card, go to the OR and have them check you in on the system", brings us back to square one and the printed Pay Sheet for all Class A.  Reserve Trg Nights can not be taken up by the members standing in line at the OR for a RMS clerk, or other trained member, to enter their particulars in the Pay System; nor does it help the OR staff to do their required administrative duties.

I find your opinions stodgy and defeatist. If you had the same "it can't be done" attitude as an NCO then you probably weren't a very good one.

I take offence to your statement, and find it that of a very ignorant (less than knowledgeable) NCO with a very large chip on her/his shoulder.  Rather petty if you ask me.   

Your opinions on this subject are so far out of touch with reality, both the abilities and entitlements for Class A Reservists to acquire such pie in the sky capabilities, and most importantly the EXPENSE to DND and the CAF to implement such pie in the sky instruments to monitor Reserve Pay.  You are showing the sad fact that the CAF has "Good Idea Faeries" hidden away in dark windowless cubicles dreaming up things that are totally impractical in the real world and not of any use to the end-users. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

As identified though, the problem is people not signing the paysheet.  They forget, whatever.

Design, pay for and install this magical swipe card system and...now those same people will likely forget to swipe vice sign.

IMO, you are trying to fix the wrong problem with a new tool.

Back in my day in the PRes, each sub-unit had a NCO that was responsible for ensuring the pay sheet was signed and submitted (my sub-unit was in a different location than RHQ).

For years...it worked by making it a leadership function of, usually, our Troop MCpl.  It worked.  No swipe cards or brain chips required.  For a wknd ex, etc, the paysheets would be on a low-tech 6 foot table beside say, the wpns lockup or the SOR, somewhere accessible to everyone.

We didn't even have to provide pens to sign, because everyone carried their own personal signature device (pen, Bic, Mark 1) in their FMP or pocket. 

Not every solution to a problem has to be "a new invention".

:2c:

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Class A Reservists do not get issued ID badges with RFID tags for buildings, even in the NCR.  Keycards for Class A Reservists......not likely to happen, as there is no requirement for 90% or more of them to enter classified areas.  "Lost or can't find your card, go to the OR and have them check you in on the system", brings us back to square one and the printed Pay Sheet for all Class A.  Reserve Trg Nights can not be taken up by the members standing in line at the OR for a RMS clerk, or other trained member, to enter their particulars in the Pay System; nor does it help the OR staff to do their required administrative duties.

I take offence to your statement, and find it that of a very ignorant (less than knowledgeable) NCO with a very large chip on her/his shoulder.  Rather petty if you ask me.   

Your opinions on this subject are so far out of touch with reality, both the abilities and entitlements for Class A Reservists to acquire such pie in the sky capabilities, and most importantly the EXPENSE to DND and the CAF to implement such pie in the sky instruments to monitor Reserve Pay.  You are showing the sad fact that the CAF has "Good Idea Faeries" hidden away in dark windowless cubicles dreaming up things that are totally impractical in the real world and not of any use to the end-users.

George, a keycard is cheap, the system for keycards is much cheaper than the aggregate cost of the way the reserves are doing business now with pay sheets. The fact that people like you think it's "pie in the sky" shows a lack of vision or a defeatist attitude. It's the reason things never improve, and it's the reason the CF becomes stuck in their ways.

Yes there may be a scattered person that forgets their keycard, just like there is a scattered person that forgets their snowshoes before an ex, or forgets their cf whites before a parade. We send those exceptions to the SQ to sign out what they need. The SQ isn't swamped with people because we've given everyone whites, only the people who haven't got theirs yet, or forgot them need sign them out. 90% of the work is eliminated.

Fact of the matter is, the CAF needs to change with the times and improve and streamline their processes. When old RSMs get too set in their ways and dismiss any new idea the CAF gets stuck in a rut.

Just because you are unable to envision something better than what currently is in any situation, doesn't mean doing something new is a bad idea. Stodgy and defeatist.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Why not put all reservists on a salary, based on a minimum number of days per month, and pay them into their bank accounts?

If someone doesn't parade 4.5 days that month, as recorded by the Pl 2IC/CSM, deduct it from subsequent pay cheques.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

As identified though, the problem is people not signing the paysheet.  They forget, whatever.

Design, pay for and install this magical swipe card system and...now those same people will likely forget to swipe vice sign.

IMO, you are trying to fix the wrong problem with a new tool.

Back in my day in the PRes, each sub-unit had a NCO that was responsible for ensuring the pay sheet was signed and submitted (my sub-unit was in a different location than RHQ).

For years...it worked by making it a leadership function of, usually, our Troop MCpl.  It worked.  No swipe cards or brain chips required.  For a wknd ex, etc, the paysheets would be on a low-tech 6 foot table beside say, the wpns lockup or the SOR, somewhere accessible to everyone.

We didn't even have to provide pens to sign, because everyone carried their own personal signature device (pen, Bic, Mark 1) in their FMP or pocket. 

Not every solution to a problem has to be "a new invention".

:2c:

If it were me, I would attach the keycard to the door sensor, you need to scan to get in the building. Link that monitor mass. Or if that doesn't float your boat, put it outside the OR and everyone flashes it by the sensor. Speeds up the sign in process and takes the work away from the clerk. There are solutions to the job that don't involve paying someone 50k a year to count ticks in a box.

This is how many business run things now, the old punch clock (which, funny enough, was the thing that replaced signing sheets in the first place) is replaced with keycards or tags to get into the building. You scan in, you scan out, and the system tracks  your hours.

The issue is, all our pay system is now automated except for the client level. The reserves still sign sheets, clerks still cross them out and put ticks in a book and then manually enter that into RPSR. Automating the entire system rather than the current 90% would make everything easier.