Better system instead of Cl A pay sheets

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Why not put all reservists on a salary, based on a minimum number of days per month, and pay them into their bank accounts?

If someone doesn't parade 4.5 days that month, as recorded by the Pl 2IC/CSM, deduct it from subsequent pay cheques.

Then you have a guy making $200 a day counting ticks in a box rather than the $120 a day clerk.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Wouldn't a swipe card system be easier to abuse and defraud than a member physically signing in?

What about a laptop or computer station where a member logs in their info  and maybe one of those PDA type things you can sign like Fedex uses too.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If it were me, I would attach the keycard to the door sensor, you need to scan to get in the building. Link that monitor mass. Or if that doesn't float your boat, put it outside the OR and everyone flashes it by the sensor. Speeds up the sign in process and takes the work away from the clerk. There are solutions to the job that don't involve paying someone 50k a year to count ticks in a box.

So, if I am "just dropping by the armouries", I'll get paid every day I flash my card.  Sweet!  No chance for abuse there!!

Clerks do more than this 'check 2 ticks' stuff.  That is part of their job. However I see you are of the "only a tech solution will work" mindset and a Jimmy so, with respect, not surprised. 

I don't want to see a single CAF dollar dropped onto THIS when there are threads on here discussing troops who can't get boots, ships that can't sail and flying Sqns with reduced YFRs.

This is how many business run things now, the old punch clock (which, funny enough, was the thing that replaced signing sheets in the first place) is replaced with keycards or tags to get into the building. You scan in, you scan out, and the system tracks  your hours.

The issue is, all our pay system is now automated except for the client level. The reserves still sign sheets, clerks still cross them out and put ticks in a book and then manually enter that into RPSR. Automating the entire system rather than the current 90% would make everything easier.

But here is the thing;  EASIER does not always equal BETTER.

This is one case where, IMO, nationally, this proposed solution would not be worth the money.  I think you are looking at the entire CF PRES infrastructure thru a straw and see a few spots this 'might' work.

Question;  the people who forget to sign the paysheets...now they forget to bring their swipe card.  Now what? 

This is what I am talking about when I say your solution is fixing the wrong problem. 

Turn this into a sub-unit, Jnr NCO leadership function.  We did it for YEARS like this and it worked.  No extra $$ spent.

 

[dangerboy]

I agree with the comments above, years ago when I was a reserve we just had a table set up and everyone signed in and the Pl 2IC when he had us formed up for roll call/inspection confirmed that everybody signed in.  The problem was never with the sign in sheets but with how long after the fin clerks (yes I am dating myself) entered the information the troops actually saw the money.  We have enough programs in place that the reserves can't get proper support for (DWAN, Montor Mass, People Soft) as the help desk only works 8-4 adding another system will not help the situation.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The problem was never with the sign in sheets but with how long after the fin clerks (yes I am dating myself) entered the information the troops actually saw the money.

Oh, the good ol days where we had a separate pay office/cell. 

Fond memories of the IRPS (or as we called it the WHOOPS!) pay system).  Nightmare that was.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Wouldn't a swipe card system be easier to abuse and defraud than a member physically signing in?

What about a laptop or computer station where a member logs in their info  and maybe one of those PDA type things you can sign like Fedex uses too.

Maybe?

My idea more involves creating a monitor mass activity with names attached to it. Create one before weeknights (everyone), one for exercises (those on ex) and one for special work parties (those who are asked to come in) when you scan in, it ticks you off as being there. If you are not in the activity list, then you don't get ticked off as being there. If you come in when asked but aren't on the list, the OPI or OR adds you and ticks you off in monitor mass. You forget to bring your keycard, same thing.

You can bang your head against the wall looking to cover every eventuality, but some Pte will find a scenario you didn't think of. You just need to add the flexibility of fixing the outliers while covering the vast majority of cases.

Leaders are still responsible for ensuring the people they need are there (attendance). Same as when someone signs in and then takes off home for the day. It's CoC responsibility to keep track of their pers.

This is just how to speed up the administration side of the pay system.

 

[George Wallace]

George, a keycard is cheap, the system for keycards is much cheaper than the aggregate cost of the way the reserves are doing business now with pay sheets. The fact that people like you think it's "pie in the sky" shows a lack of vision or a defeatist attitude. It's the reason things never improve, and it's the reason the CF becomes stuck in their ways.

Yes there may be a scattered person that forgets their keycard, just like there is a scattered person that forgets their snowshoes before an ex, or forgets their cf whites before a parade. We send those exceptions to the SQ to sign out what they need. The SQ isn't swamped with people because we've given everyone whites, only the people who haven't got theirs yet, or forgot them need sign them out. 90% of the work is eliminated.

Fact of the matter is, the CAF needs to change with the times and improve and streamline their processes. When old RSMs get too set in their ways and dismiss any new idea the CAF gets stuck in a rut.

Just because you are unable to envision something better than what currently is in any situation, doesn't mean doing something new is a bad idea. Stodgy and defeatist.

Why not just do as envisioned by others to place a chip in one's ID Card (NDI 20) that would hold all their Medical, Security Lvl, DNA, Fingerprints, 404's, etc. (every bit of their Mil History/MPRR and more) on one card.  It is a great idea; one tried in the past that failed as a swipe card, but possible with new technologies?  One Card does all.  Frees up space in our wallets.

Problems with the Reserves:

1.  Time involved issuing Reservists ID Cards of any sort, even Temporary IDs (NDI 10).  Some Reservists serve over two years before being issued a NDI 20; 
2.  Some Reservists don't even make it past BMQ;
3.  DND/CAF purchasing and installing necessary hardware at all Reserve locations to read such cards;
4.  Possible security concerns with this hardware installed in Reserve locations;
5.  System failures or power outages at Reserve locations and time entailed to repair such problems;
6.  Training and support for such systems; and
7.  Misc other problems.

Some of those are minor and some of them are very major problems in implementing any system to the Reserves.  The Reserves are the "poor cousins" to the Reg Force, and support is dwindling annually.  Armour Reserves, for instance, with the advances in technology and wpns systems are finding an ever widening delta in their training and support from their Reg Force counterparts.  New radios in the late ''80s meant that Armour Reserve units now had less radios to do their jobs, and cut back greatly on their capabilities.  New vehicles also saw a reduction in vehicles allotted to the Reserve Armour units.  What may be good for the Reg Force, does not necessarily transfer over easily and smoothly to the Reserves.   

 

[Fishbone Jones]

In the end, the Pay Clerk still has to enter Reserve pay into the computer manually.

So it doesn't matter what system is used to get the information to them.

Until that changes, most solutions just boil down to "I want to spend money on shiny new kit, that provides no real benefit over the existing system"

Pay sheets (and an NCOs troop attendance book) still provide the least man intensive, cost effective solution for capturing and confirming attendance in the Reserves.

If a troop forgets to sign in, there are simple, expedient means available to correct that. If the offender is chronic, there are means available to correct that also.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Why not just do as envisioned by others to place a chip in one's ID Card (NDI 20) that would hold all their Medical, Security Lvl, DNA, Fingerprints, 404's, etc. (every bit of their Mil History/MPRR and more) on one card.  It is a great idea; one tried in the past that failed as a swipe card, but possible with new technologies?  One Card does all.  Frees up space in our wallets.

This is actually a good idea. Have it as a NFC smart card like your credit card. Scan in for the day. You don't need to store the info on the card, just store a unique certificate that would authenticate to the appropriate database. Would make the DAG process much quicker. Soldier scans the card, the Clerk or whatever has that persons details pop up on their screen. Same for at the MIR, scan in, scan out, no need for sick chits and then manual entry into the person's file or monitor mass. I like how your are thinking on this George.

Problems with the Reserves:

1.  Time involved issuing Reservists ID Cards of any sort, even Temporary IDs (NDI 10).  Some Reservists serve over two years before being issued a NDI 20; 
2.  Some Reservists don't even make it past BMQ;
3.  DND/CAF purchasing and installing necessary hardware at all Reserve locations to read such cards;
4.  Possible security concerns with this hardware installed in Reserve locations;
5.  System failures or power outages at Reserve locations and time entailed to repair such problems;
6.  Training and support for such systems; and
7.  Misc other problems.

Some of those are minor and some of them are very major problems in implementing any system to the Reserves.  The Reserves are the "poor cousins" to the Reg Force, and support is dwindling annually.  Armour Reserves, for instance, with the advances in technology and wpns systems are finding an ever widening delta in their training and support from their Reg Force counterparts.  New radios in the late ''80s meant that Armour Reserve units now had less radios to do their jobs, and cut back greatly on their capabilities.  New vehicles also saw a reduction in vehicles allotted to the Reserve Armour units.  What may be good for the Reg Force, does not necessarily transfer over easily and smoothly to the Reserves. 

1. The ID Card thing is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I've been to PSP gyms where they can create a gym card right on the spot for you. No reason why the MPs shouldn't be able to create a NDI 20 card on the spot. Ideally they should be able to program the chip with a randomly generated certificate that associates to your user info in HRMS. Link that to all other databases as well.

2. As far as reserve BMQs go, it's up to the CAF if they choose to do that manually until they pass BMQ or they want to invest the time and money in them right away. I would do it right away if it were me, I doubt the total cost of issuing these would top $100.

3. I think they should, they'd save money on administration. You could probably cut a lot of full time pay clerks and merge the remaining responsibilities with other positions. There could be a lot of the RMS job that could be streamlined with better use of current processes and use of newer technologies.

4. I don't see the security concerns, it was installed in civilian buildings in downtown Ottawa (keycard security access). I'd argue it makes things more secure. As well the NFC security seems to be tight enough for your bank to put it on your credit card, so I don't think the security concerns of the reserves are an issue.

5. System/Power failure - Like I said, can't plan for every eventuality. Always have a backup in place, be it direct entry into RPSR or monitor mass, or using paysheets as a backup until the system is restored.

6. Training - For the user it's not going to require any more training than filling out a pay sheet. Arugeably it's more fool proof, I've seen some really screwed up pay sheets. For the clerks, it becomes part of their DP1.1. It's no more complicated than the manual system now in place, and in fact takes much of the tedious work off of them. There's no point in paying a skilled professional clerk 50k a year to count ticks. It's not to disregard their job, in fact I have a lot of respect for them, it's to take the time consuming crap that a computer can do off their hands so they can do the more complicated parts of their job.

7. Misc other solutions.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

3. I think they should, they'd save money on administration. You could probably cut a lot of full time pay clerks and merge the remaining responsibilities with other positions. There could be a lot of the RMS job that could be streamlined with better use of current processes and use of newer technologies.

The full time pay clerk at a PRES unit OR is likely doing more than 'just pay' in my experience.  I say keep the people in the jobs, install LESS ineffective, overpriced, systems and software. 

I don't want a chip in my ID card that holds ALL my relevant info.  I'd have to carry that around everywhere all day.  No thanks.  I'd prefer it where it is now.  One less thing I get in shit for if I lose my wallet or it is stolen.

 

[Journeyman]

So, to sum up:

- one person is saying (over and over and over) that "my way of automating this process is awesome";

- multiple people (some of whom appear to be involved with Reserves in some way) are saying, "it's a solution in search of a problem," "Reserve IT only gets supported 8-4 M/F already," "if you want to spend money, buy boots, planes, ships rather than Jimmie empire building," etc


May I suggest:
if you're going to monopolize so many threads with your 'expertise,'  perhaps you should SUBSCRIBE in order to help the site owner with the bandwidth you're burning up at a furious pace today.


/ignore

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Another point with pay sheets, is that they are coded to the task.

This way attendance is captured to the proper cost centers.

Something that won't happen, without more expensive, time consuming work, if you just swipe on the way through the door.

In the end, what works in high end, Reg force centres won't work in the Reserve world. At least with separate pay systems in play.

Anyone thinking otherwise has never been a Reservist or has totally lost touch with that world if they were.

Pay sheets are the, least expensive, epitome of the KISS principle.

 

[The_Falcon]

If people want to upgrade to the 21st century, I think the easiest solution would be, 1)Keep the pay sheets 2)Whenever RPSR finally gets upgraded and merged with CCPS, include a feature to scan the damn things into this new paysystem.  If it is now possible to take a picture of cheque using a smart phone to deposit said cheque into a bank account, surely there has got to be some sort of COTS program for scanning documents into a pay system somewhere. 

 

[George Wallace]

1. The ID Card thing is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. I've been to PSP gyms where they can create a gym card right on the spot for you. No reason why the MPs shouldn't be able to create a NDI 20 card on the spot. Ideally they should be able to program the chip with a randomly generated certificate that associates to your user info in HRMS. Link that to all other databases as well.

This is not a gym membership, and does require some security measures and processing.  NDI 20s could not be issued in the NCR for two years because Pass Control's machine was broken.  Even now, with the capability of on the spot processing, they take their time in issuing their NDI 20's to the Reserves.

2. As far as reserve BMQs go, it's up to the CAF if they choose to do that manually until they pass BMQ or they want to invest the time and money in them right away. I would do it right away if it were me, I doubt the total cost of issuing these would top $100.

Manual entry brings us back to the start; paper pay sheets signed by members and data entered by the OR clerks.  Issuing a $100 ID card to a person who may find out after a couple of months that they do not have what it takes to be a Reservist could be a monumental waste of funds.

3. I think they should, they'd save money on administration. You could probably cut a lot of full time pay clerks and merge the remaining responsibilities with other positions. There could be a lot of the RMS job that could be streamlined with better use of current processes and use of newer technologies.

Such electronic systems are not cheap.  They can be problematic in maintenance and servicing.  Vandalism is another concern.  Downtime due to maintenance/servicing/vandalism may be for a long or indefinite period.

4. I don't see the security concerns, it was installed in civilian buildings in downtown Ottawa (keycard security access). I'd argue it makes things more secure. As well the NFC security seems to be tight enough for your bank to put it on your credit card, so I don't think the security concerns of the reserves are an issue.

This brings up the expense of installing a Security System to monitor access to this system, as in Bank Machines; cameras and recording equipment.

5. System/Power failure - Like I said, can't plan for every eventuality. Always have a backup in place, be it direct entry into RPSR or monitor mass, or using paysheets as a backup until the system is restored.

Back up power supplies.  Just another expense. 

6. Training - For the user it's not going to require any more training than filling out a pay sheet. Arugeably it's more fool proof, I've seen some really screwed up pay sheets. For the clerks, it becomes part of their DP1.1. It's no more complicated than the manual system now in place, and in fact takes much of the tedious work off of them. There's no point in paying a skilled professional clerk 50k a year to count ticks. It's not to disregard their job, in fact I have a lot of respect for them, it's to take the time consuming crap that a computer can do off their hands so they can do the more complicated parts of their job.

Training does not necessarily restrict itself to the Reservists or the data entry personnel.  It also applies to the technicians who will be required to install, maintain and replace/repair the systems; all of whom will be outside of the Reserve unit and perhaps well outside the immediate area of that Reserve unit.


You must broaden your field of view when you consider what you may suggest.  There are many small and large considerations involving not only expense, but in the employment of personnel trained to install and maintain such systems that are employed outside of the Reserve units.  You could be one such person, who being a tech in the NCR, being sent out to .....say Yellowknife.... to install or fix such a system for a Reserve unit there.  You PY and travel expenses would have to be covered by someone's budget, as will the time that you will be tasked, the priority of that tasking, etc.  It is never just as simple as having a "good idea".  You have to take a broader view of the problem and visit all avenues to see if it really is better than what currently exists and whether or not it will be better and cheaper in the future with as few problems as feasible.

 

[dapaterson]

1. Monitor MASS is not robust, reliable or certified to handle such data.  It is a disaster waiting to explode, with grossly inadequate user access controls.  It is a hack, in every sense of the word.

2.  Pay sheets are accounting documents, and therefore must meet certain standards.

 

[The_Falcon]

1. Monitor MASS is not robust, reliable or certified to handle such data.  It is a disaster waiting to explode, with grossly inadequate user access controls.  It is a hack, in every sense of the word.

2.  Pay sheets are accounting documents, and therefore must meet certain standards.

Hence why I like my idea, using somekind of OCR scanning software attached to the paysystem. Something like this http://www.irislink.com/c2-2416-189/IRISCapture-Forms---Form-Recognition-Software.aspx  (a google search brings many more companies).  Maintains the need to keep a hard copy for future audits, allows for portability (ie on exs), and saves on time spent on  manual entry, and searching for "ticks" in a box.  Costs would be software licensing costs and a scanner (which are pretty cheap).

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

Moving to an electronic system is not something I'm proposing because I'm a jimmy, it's something I'm proposing because it's how everything is going.

This is not an army specific issue. This has been solved and again and again in the private sector. Why we think we are special when it comes to part time employees and high turn over is beyond me. The solutions are out there, and they work much the way I'm suggesting.

Will it be a perfect system? No.  Is our current system perfect? No.

Will it be possible to defraud this system? Of Course. Is the current system frequently defrauded? Of Course.

I'm just proposing an idea, if you see issues, think of a fix, or think of another solution and propose that. Or we can just continue the same tired administratively burdensome process that many organizations abandoned since the punch clock was invented. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_clock

 

[jpjohnsn]

The amusing thing about all the suggestions where an automated system might fail - from power failures to fin codes - has all been solved in the private sector.  Automated timekeeping systems are cheap, reliable, robust and any startup costs or maintenance is small compared to overall savings.  The company I work for has almost 900 retail locations plus district offices and distribution centre with thousands of employees from BC to Nunavut to NL and we have 3 payroll people plus a supervisor for the whole company.  Nothing that RADOPSIGOPACISSOP mentioned would raise an eyebrow outside of this forum.

 

[George Wallace]

The amusing thing about all the suggestions where an automated system might fail - from power failures to fin codes - has all been solved in the private sector.  Automated timekeeping systems are cheap, reliable, robust and any startup costs or maintenance is small compared to overall savings.  The company I work for has almost 900 retail locations plus district offices and distribution centre with thousands of employees from BC to Nunavut to NL and we have 3 payroll people plus a supervisor for the whole company.  Nothing that RADOPSIGOPACISSOP mentioned would raise an eyebrow outside of this forum.

The major thing to remember about the Private Sector, funding is not controlled by Treasury Board.  Without funding, all the pros and cons to this debate are mote.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Everyone is putting the cart before the horse.

Until the RPSR system is changed there is no sense looking for a solution to the input system.

Going after a high tech solution, at this point, is wasted money. It will likely have to be changed out once a new pay system is designed.

There is nothing wrong with high tech......when the advantages outweigh what is there. Right now they do not.

For the RPSR system normal old pay sheets are the most cost effective, efficient system there is to deal with what is there now.

It's cheap, simple and doesn't take a lot of effort. Unlike something high tech that can be taken off line for weeks, because we got it from the lowest bidder. Had it installed by cable installers. And it just blew a capacitor on it's Chinese circuit board and that model is no longer available.

Shucks, now we find ourselves back to pay sheets in the interim.

Don't get bent about a gee whiz inputting system until you solve where it's going to be input to.