BMOQ failure rate?

[Highlander60]

Senior leadership has acknowledged the failure rate stats and has recently made some changes at CFLRS. Many people were VRing for the wrong reasons, so now more focus will be put on "mentoring" as apposed to the "hard nose" approach.

 

[Celticgirl]

Senior leadership has acknowledged the failure rate stats and has recently made some changes at CFLRS. Many people were VRing for the wrong reasons, so now more focus will be put on "mentoring" as apposed to the "hard nose" approach.

Good call on the part of senior leadership.  8)

 

[benny88]

My mistake....I didn't realize we were talking about the spoiled university kids.

    Since this thread has been kicked awake I'd like to ask Prairie Dog to show a little more respect in the future please. To insult candidates on BMOQ out of the blue and without provocation is random and rude, especially from a Senior NCO. Remember that there are a lot of prospective applicants here, and you being openly offensive must be pretty discouraging if they were considering applying as an Officer.
    It's as much of a generalization and a fallacy as if I were to say "Everyone on BMQ is stupid because they're NCM's" Both are wildly inaccurate, and I'm sure you'd take offense if I were to say the latter.
    Most kicks at the collective OCdt can are in good fun and I take it as such, but my peers and I are not "spoiled university kids".

 

[Michael OLeary]

Anyone thinking about jumping in here should review this thread first.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[aesop081]

    Since this thread has been kicked awake I'd like to ask Prairie Dog to show a little more respect in the future please.

Wouldnt it have better to just let it go ? Its not because someone decided to post at random, that it gives your the justification to carry on with what was up to now, a dead argument.

 

[benny88]

Wouldnt it have better to just let it go ? Its not because someone decided to post at random, that it gives your the justification to carry on with what was up to now, a dead argument.

PM inbound to avoid further clutter in this thread.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Senior leadership has acknowledged the failure rate stats and has recently made some changes at CFLRS. Many people were VRing for the wrong reasons, so now more focus will be put on "mentoring" as apposed to the "hard nose" approach.

Can you elaborate alittle more on this?  What wrong reasons? 

Change is good, providing quality isn't being sacrificed for quantity (which I am sure we've seen the results of before).

 

[dapaterson]

There are higher than average pre-DP1 completion release rates right now.  However, it's not entirely clear what the drivers are:

(1) Is it CFLRS being to hard on students?

(2) Is it schools delivering DP1 training  being too hard?

(3) Are the selection standards adequate?  Or, in the past, were we selecting higher above the minimum standard, and thus seeing greater success; now that we'll bring you in within a month as long as you reach the minimums are we seeing that the minimums are too low?

Current work is to address (1) and (2); reviewing data to assess (3) will take much longer...

 

[Cleared Hot]

I'm sorry? You have a problem with people furthering their education?

What I gather from this is that there are many factors contributing to the lack of success (as opposed to outright 'failure') of some candidates in IAP/BOTP. It could be injury, illness, low level of fitness, VR due to personal reasons, or some combination. I wonder what the actual number is for those who simply fail the courses due to lack of ability, effort, or 'the right stuff' and not for any of the aforementioned reasons. I'm betting it's nowhere near 50%, or even 25%.

But that is the point, there are very few academic challenges per se on BMOQ.  With the exception of a legitimate injury or illness all those reasons (esp VR) you list are indicators that the person did not have "the right stuff" as you say.  Also don't forget that instructors have seen course after course and know fairly quickly who will make it and who shouldn't be there.  Yes they say they are shifting to a more mentoring approach but at the end of the day it is very hard to fail a student - you have to very carefully dot all your "I"s  and cross all your "T"s.  It is much easier to "not talk a student out of VRing", so don't make the mistake of counting those out of the stats.  At the end of the day it is all about who is left on grad parade - and I am not talking about BMOQ but your classification training.  The recruiting process may have been frustrating, but it was a snap.  The courses just keep getting harder (at least until you are qualified) - even if you are only joining the Air Force! ;D

So let's be conservative and say 1/4 leave after BMOQ, 1/4 on DP 1.1 then another 1/4 on DP 1.2 your chance of making it through are about 42%.  I don't mean to discourage anyone, just motivate them to take this very seriously.  I know everyone says they will - including the previous 58%

 

[Highlander60]

Can you elaborate alittle more on this?  What wrong reasons? 

First of all, this is only second hand info, I work in recruiting right now, not CFLRS. However, we both work for the same org, so we do give and get briefings from time to time in order to try and improve the whole process. I get reports every week on the success rate at BMQ's and BMOQ's when then are running, how and for what reasons they are losing people off the course. For a large number of recruits early on the reason is "wrong career choice". IMHO how would someone know if it is the wrong career choice if they have only been at it for a few days. This would be a good reason for a "mentor" to sit down with them and discuss the real concerns of the recruit with the aim to reduce the amount of VR's for "wrong Career choice" in the first few weeks of the BMQ.

 

[TCBF]

First of all, this is only second hand info, I work in recruiting right now, not CFLRS. However, we both work for the same org, so we do give and get briefings from time to time in order to try and improve the whole process. I get reports every week on the success rate at BMQ's and BMOQ's when then are running, how and for what reasons they are losing people off the course. For a large number of recruits early on the reason is "wrong career choice". IMHO how would someone know if it is the wrong career choice if they have only been at it for a few days. This would be a good reason for a "mentor" to sit down with them and discuss the real concerns of the recruit with the aim to reduce the amount of VR's for "wrong Career choice" in the first few weeks of the BMQ.

- When I was a Pl Comd at CFLRS, I would on occaision call recuiters to talk about the recruits that they had sent us.  Interesting conversations, by the way. 

 

[benny88]

- When I was a Pl Comd at CFLRS, I would on occaision call recuiters to talk about the recruits that they had sent us.  Interesting conversations, by the way. 

  Wow no sh*t. Not that I think it's a bad thing, but that suprises me.

 

[Highlander60]

- When I was a Pl Comd at CFLRS, I would on occaision call recuiters to talk about the recruits that they had sent us.  Interesting conversations, by the way. 

That's what we need more of, chatting at the cold face level. CMP visited us a few weeks ago and promised to send a bunch from our AOR to St Jean to see things first hand. We also have a few ex CFLRS staff working for us now so that is helping.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

First of all, this is only second hand info, I work in recruiting right now, not CFLRS. However, we both work for the same org, so we do give and get briefings from time to time in order to try and improve the whole process. I get reports every week on the success rate at BMQ's and BMOQ's when then are running, how and for what reasons they are losing people off the course. For a large number of recruits early on the reason is "wrong career choice". IMHO how would someone know if it is the wrong career choice if they have only been at it for a few days. This would be a good reason for a "mentor" to sit down with them and discuss the real concerns of the recruit with the aim to reduce the amount of VR's for "wrong Career choice" in the first few weeks of the BMQ.

Might be 2nd hand but you are plugged into that network.  CFRG and CDA-CFLRS have a vested interest in the work you folks do.

So..it seems like it hasn't changed in 19 years then...people are still doubting "the army" after they realize its not all like the movies. 

 

[Negative One]

The majority of those that don't make it through don't out of either choice (some realise that the CF isn't for them) or recourse (due to injuries, etc).

 

[poiriernb]

Hi all, I don't want  to re-open this topic incorrectly, but I had a few questions about failure due to injury.  I am heading to BMOQ in September, I'm in good shape, I'm not VRing cause I'm putting all my eggs in this basket (ill go bankrupt if I VR!) Anyhow, I'm worried about getting injured.  Am I released from the forces? Do I get recoursed?  Do I have to be there a certain amount of time, so that if I do get injured I'm recoursed?

 

[George Wallace]

For the most part, it will probably depend on the extent of your injury.  A minor sprain may have you miss a few days of training.  A torn ligament may have you Returned to your Unit.  A spinal injury may see you Released. 

 

[ruckmarch]

Hi all, I don't want  to re-open this topic incorrectly, but I had a few questions about failure due to injury.  I am heading to BMOQ in September, I'm in good shape, I'm not VRing cause I'm putting all my eggs in this basket (ill go bankrupt if I VR!) Anyhow, I'm worried about getting injured.  Am I released from the forces? Do I get recoursed?  Do I have to be there a certain amount of time, so that if I do get injured I'm recoursed?

OK...I'll answer this from what I know from st jean. First off the staff are human too and know that people are bound to get injured, it's inevitable on every platoon. PT takes it's toll on some people, and so does the O-Course.

There is only a number of hours you can miss before they start thinking recoursing you or give you the chance to join another platoon that is a few weeks behind. We lost a few people during IAP and 3 people two weeks before graduation due to exhaustion and inability to carry out there mission, which would have involved tactical moves down a dark 2-5km  road at 1-5am in the morning in NOV.

The 3 folks did however join platoons that were a couple of weeks behind and graduated. It's all down to how much of a fighter you are, and if they see that you really want it. One guy broke his ankle at the begining of BOTP and still managed to graduate with us.

Push yourself for sure, but don't overdo things, always save that extra. I was at times accused of being a light-bulb for switching it on and off......my reason for doing that, I didn't want to end spending more than 13 wks at the MEGA.

 

[poiriernb]

Oh ok, thanks a lot for all your feedback! So basically what I gather, if its a pretty major injury, there's a good chance you could be sent home (which is understandable) and if its sort of a minor injury, you can man up and push yourself, or get recoursed.  My next questions, what about a major injury after basic? LTD? Or are you released if its serious to the point you can't adequately do your job?  Or would they OT you do a trade you could do?

 

[George Wallace]

Oh ok, thanks a lot for all your feedback! So basically what I gather, if its a pretty major injury, there's a good chance you could be sent home (which is understandable) and if its sort of a minor injury, you can man up and push yourself, or get recoursed.  My next questions, what about a major injury after basic? LTD? Or are you released if its serious to the point you can't adequately do your job?  Or would they OT you do a trade you could do?

I thought I answered that.

Let's face it.  You don't have a Trade.  You only have a few months in the military.  Why would they want to give you an OT if you have a major injury.  You will LIKELY BE RELEASED.

Same thing as would apply if you were BMQ.  No difference.