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British budget troubles

Mark ,
        the final line "The Royal Marines also face coming under direct Army control from Navy command and the possibility of being grouped into a “super elite” unit" I translate as be adsorbed or disbanded  as soon as the Army can get away with it
 
More on the serious nature of UK defence reform--and what will be thought about (might be lessons for us):

Dr Liam Fox outlines reform of the Ministry of Defence
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/DrLiamFoxOutlinesReformOfTheMinistryOfDefence.htm

Secretary of State for Defence Dr Liam Fox has this morning [Aug. 13] announced the strategy for reforming the Ministry of Defence which will include the setting up of the Defence Reform Unit that will lead in the reorganisation of the Ministry of Defence into three 'strategic pillars'.

Speaking to an audience at the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors in Westminster, Dr Fox announced that he is launching a full review of how the Ministry of Defence is run and how the Armed Forces can be reformed to 'produce more efficient provision of defence capability, and generation and sustainment of operations'.

In his speech Dr Fox began by describing the background to the changes, highlighting the fact that the country faces a legacy of debt - the interest on which for the next year alone will exceed the budget of the Ministry of Defence.

He said that it was a 'disgrace' that there had not been a Defence Review for 12 years, despite our Armed Forces being committed to conflicts in the Balkans, Sierra Leone, Iraq and Afghanistan and with enormous changes in the global security picture.

Dr Fox said the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) will not simply be a random selection of cuts but an objective process by which the shape of the Armed Forces required will be reached by the end of the decade. He said...

He said we need to 'invest in programmes that we will require to put our defence on a sound footing for the years ahead and divest ourselves of the capabilities which we are unlikely to need in a world where the moral climate demands precision weaponry and where the battlespace increasingly embraces the unmanned and cyber domains', adding:

    "We are contrasting cost-savings and the capability implications with the risks that we face in the real global security environment.

    "This requires assessing any proposed change in a current programme or platform against a series of criteria, including:

    "First, the cost-saving in years zero to five, five to ten, and beyond ten.

    "Second, the capability implications - what capability will be lost as a result of this decision and what other assets do we possess that might give us the same or a similar capability?

    "Third, the operational implications - what operations that we currently carry out, or are likely to carry out, will we be unable to undertake as a result of this change?
[emphasis added]

    "Fourth, the ability to regenerate the capability, at what cost and in what timeframe.

    "And fifth, the risk in the real world that this capability currently protects us from or is likely to protect us from in the foreseeable future."..

He stressed that a logical management structure would be 'foreign policy leading to a defence strategy [emphasis added], then portfolio management which identified capability gaps, followed by specific programme identification and finally physical procurement'.

The new three pillar structure is designed to make this easier and to stop the constant over-specification and then re-specification of programmes which has led to cost overruns and programme delays...

Mark
Ottawa
 
The Fox Axe
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7640349/Geddes-Axe-a-brief-explanation.html
getting ready to chop:

Defence spending: thousands of troops to be cut
Tens of thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen face the axe after ministers concluded that reducing the number of uniformed personnel in the Armed Forces was the best way to save money.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/7995646/Defence-spending-thousands-of-troops-to-be-cut.html

The cuts, which are part of the strategic defence review, will lead to a substantial reduction in the size of the Army, which will also have to give up many of its tanks and armoured vehicles. Soldiers could also be ordered to serve longer on the front line in Afghanistan, and be given less time to recuperate between tours.

Senior ministers are poised to make the first painful decisions on cuts next week as part of the Strategic Defence and Security Review. The Daily Telegraph has learnt that deep cuts to military manpower are high on the agenda.

The Armed Forces have about 180,000 uniformed personnel, but can keep a fighting force in the field of barely one twentieth of that. Paying for housing and supporting uniformed personnel is one of the biggest drains on the £36 billion Ministry of Defence budget.

According to the review, employing each uniformed serviceman was 50 per cent more expensive than employing an MoD civil servant, and twice as costly as the average civil servant. Many Armed Forces personnel carrying out administrative roles could be replaced by civilians, ministers were told.

The review also concluded provisionally that:

    * Cutting the size of the Army would make it easier to honour a Tory pledge to bring troops out of Germany. But Dr Liam Fox, the Defence Secretary, was advised that an early exit could potentially increase costs since the forces there currently would need new British bases.

    * The Trident nuclear deterrent should be replaced with another four-submarine deterrent. However, the Trident vessels could be kept in service longer to delay spending on the replacement.

    * The Royal Navy’s two new aircraft carriers were likely to be approved, costing more than £5 billion. However, the type and number of aircraft they would carry remained the subject of debate [emphasis added, F-35 impact?]...

As the largest of the three services, the Army was likely to bear the brunt of the cuts [emphasis added]. Commanders would be told to “do more with less” and increase “force generation” ratios, which determine the total number of troops required to field a specified front line force.

Currently, an Army of almost 100,000 was required to sustain a force of about 10,000 in Afghanistan, partly due to the time required for training before each six-month tour and recuperation time afterwards...

Proportionately more than the RAF?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/7931465/RAF-to-shrink-to-World-War-One-levels.html

Still a lot of competitive leaking going on, apparently.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Note fighters:

Defense Review Worries U.K. Industry
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/awst/2010/09/13/AW_09_13_2010_p32-253132.xml

There is growing concern in the U.K. defense and aerospace sector that decisions made in London’s far-reaching Strategic Defense and Security Review (SDSR) will jeopardize capabilities before an industrial base assessment can be completed.

As policy-makers within the National Security Council sit down to make difficult decisions about strategic ambitions and force structure before the review is unveiled toward the end of October, industry officials are making a last plea that their long-term capabilities not be disregarded. Much is at stake, they warn: the preservation of industrial capabilities and the ability to maintain a positive balance of trade in defense exports and retain the wherewithal to support military forces deployed in conflict...

Industry is particulary concerned about several key programs. One is the U.K. aircraft carrier force: Plans call for the purchase of two new carriers, the first of which is under construction. King says canceling one or both carriers has been put on the agenda, and he warns that if they are terminated, the industrial capability will disappear, unless the work is coupled with another program to preserve know-how.

“We will be very clear on the impact on the defense industrial capability” in responding, King says, while acknowledging “it is for the government to decide” the strategic rationale for sustaining or ending the force projection capability.

A carrier decision could also impact plans to buy the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing version of which the U.K. has been considering.

Also at issue is the composition of the future fighter force. The U.K. will likely choose a fleet of two fighter aircraft types rather than the current four, signaling that the GR4 Tornado and Harrier will be phased out in favor of the Eurofighter Typhoon and F-35. But King says that if the U.K. wants to retain the capability to upgrade Typhoons, industrial competencies have to be sustained by other means, such as an unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV) program...

In a sign of how sensitive issues are, BAE Systems announced on Sept. 9 plans to reduce its workforce by more than 900 employees, in large part because of known and anticipated cuts in combat aircraft activities...

Mark
Ottawa
 
The British are a 2nd rate nation longing to be 4 Th rate nation or Rather their  leadership seems to desire such a status. Curious isn't it?
 
UK military: Not what they useter be (note F-35s)/Why not much news of their Afgan successes?
http://unambig.com/uk-military-not-what-they-useter-be-note-f-35swhy-not-much-news-of-their-afgan-successes/

Mark
Ottawa
 
On the bright side maybe we can rent a carrier from them…….. :nod:

Seriously do they have any ships that would be useful for us to pick as stopgap measures, until our vaunted procurement system actually produces something that floats and can move under it’s own power? Yes I know about the subs, if we hadn’t dithered for a decade, it would been better. I am thinking of a active ship sailed over here, crews transferred and after the galley and food stores have been sterilized of all British culinary delights and habits and made fit for human consumption. (We can keep all beer stores found)
 
Colin P said:
On the bright side maybe we can rent a carrier from them…….. :nod:

Seriously do they have any ships that would be useful for us to pick as stopgap measures, until our vaunted procurement system actually produces something that floats and can move under it’s own power? Yes I know about the subs, if we hadn’t dithered for a decade, it would been better. I am thinking of a active ship sailed over here, crews transferred and after the galley and food stores have been sterilized of all British culinary delights and habits and made fit for human consumption. (We can keep all beer stores found)

Yeah, maybe they've got some subs we can use  ;D
 
Well the O boats were ex-RN if I recall and did sterling service, had we not diddled for a decade, the current batch would have been in better shape.
 
If by "sterling" you mean "constantly broke down", then yes they were sterling.

The Upholders problems started long long before they were laid up, and had their roots in a previous set of British budget troubles.
 
My Chief Engineer in the CCG served on the O boats, he related a lot of pride in being crew on them and that they ran well. I think the main problem is we kept them far to long. Yes the Upholders had issues, along with most new subs seems only the German U212-214 classes avoided most of the issues, mind you it helps when you have a steady stream of sub orders to the same yards and suppliers
 
I'm not surprised on the pride thing. We were all very proud of serving on those boats.

However, they had a lot of design weirdness. Things like a shared lube oil tank for both diesels...if one diesel chewed up something, you couldn't operate the other one until all of the bits had been found. Things like that.

The O-boats were operated to their full design life (30 years) for the most part. IIRC one of them (OK?) could have had one further refit keeping her around another few years. The refits were another thing on those boats...they had to be virtually gutted and rebuilt every 5 years. It was very expensive.
 
His favorite "O" story was relating about new oilers that failed to equalize the sewage tank to the boat when submerged, seems opening the valve from the recently used head to pump the contents into tank had the reverse effect.  ;D

He was an odd duck, lived on hot dogs, buttermilk and cigarettes. Apparently had a stunning daughter that he wouldn’t allow near the our ship as we were all lecherous bastards. As a father of a young girl I would have to agree on the last point.
 
Whatever their faults, the "O" boats (or as our British friends nicknamed them, the "I" boats: Ojibwa [Indian], Okanagan [Irish] and Onondaga [Italian]) were not "ex-RN". We purchased them brand new right of the assembly chain.

As for useful stuff coming out of the Brits troubles. If what I read somewhere else in their press is correct, the two LPD's (Albion class) are to be laid up. They would be damn useful and are both recent addition to their fleet with lots of life left in them.
 
Looks like a really serious fight going on within the new gov't:

Liam Fox: defence cuts will have 'grave consequences'
“Draconian” cuts to defence spending cannot be carried out while the country is at war without “grave consequences” for the Government, Dr Liam Fox has warned the Prime Minister.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/8031383/Liam-Fox-defence-cuts-will-have-grave-consequences.html

In a private letter to David Cameron seen by The Daily Telegraph, the Defence Secretary refuses to back any substantial reduction in the Armed Forces.

He says it risks seriously damaging troops’ morale.

The letter was written the night before a National Security Council (NSC) meeting on the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR). In it, Dr Fox says the Tories risk “destroying much of the reputation and capital” they have built up on defence.

The review is becoming indefensible, he suggests, warning of the “brutal reaction” from the party, press and military if “we do not recognise the dangers and continue to push for such draconian cuts at a time when we are at war”.

Senior Whitehall sources suggested that his intervention was a considerable political gamble after he agreed in public that the MoD had to take the pain of cuts.

The Treasury has asked the ministry to find ten per cent savings on its annual £37billion budget and the letter will further inflame Dr Fox’s relationship with George Osborne, the Chancellor. The Defence Secretary claims to have the support of other ministers.

The NSC was presented with a paper earlier this month that listed the scale of MoD cuts required to meet the Treasury’s reduction in its budget.

It is understood that tens of thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen face losing their jobs.

The Navy’s plan for new aircraft carriers is under threat, and ministers have argued over replacing the Trident nuclear submarines. Its fleet of amphibious craft could be scrapped.

The RAF is likely to lose many fighters and any new Nimrod surveillance aircraft. The Territorial Army is also facing cuts...

In a document marked “for the Prime Minister’s eyes only”, Dr Fox writes: “Frankly, this process is looking less and less defensible as a proper SDSR and more like a “super CSR” (comprehensive spending review)...

Losing amphibious landing ships will leave Britain unable to mount even a relatively small operation such as the mission in Sierra Leone 10 years ago, he warns...

Mark
Ottawa
 
Clear thinking about defence policy and the required armed forces, from General (ret’d) Sir Richard Dannatt, the UK’s former Chief of the General Staff. It would be nice if our government could come up with something similar but they won’t; too many interests, service and economic, would take hits:

A blueprint for defence that saves money and keeps Britain secure
Although dissenting voices remain, a consensus is emerging, says Richard Dannatt.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/8044808/A-blueprint-for-defence-that-saves-money-and-keeps-Britain-secure.html

Over the past few days, the Prime Minister has stated his unequivocal support for the Armed Forces and for the mission in Afghanistan, and will doubtless do so again in his conference speech this afternoon. For those who care about defence, this is most welcome. But the reality, as Dr Liam Fox has argued, is not so straightforward. After their respective speeches today, both Dr Fox and Mr Cameron will return to Whitehall to make vital decisions about our overall defence and security policy, and the size and shape of the Armed Forces.

…it is clear that there is no real appetite to reduce further our role on the world stage. However, the expensive decision to commit to a replacement for our nuclear deterrent is likely to be deferred, as a pragmatic response to the current funding crisis. Also, it is widely accepted that there will be no credible conventional threat to our territorial integrity for the foreseeable future. Instead, it is the consequences of failed and failing states that threaten our security – so complex operations such as Afghanistan represent not just a current challenge, but are likely to characterise our immediate future as well.

Several other conclusions have been drawn. There is no strict military necessity for air power to be deployed from platforms at sea in support of British operations, although the option to project power is alluring. Also, Nato will remain the principal guarantor of our collective security, and the US will remain our principal bilateral defence partner.

…The guiding principle must be that of graduated readiness. I chaired the Readiness Working Group for the last Strategic Defence Review, held in 1997-8, and remain convinced that this discipline must be applied now that the money is tight. Military units held at high readiness are the most expensive, so in this age of austerity, the only units that can be retained at that level are those which we are actually using on operations, or are likely to need in the near future. Thus our land forces – the Royal Marines, the bulk of the Army (less about half of our main battle tanks and heavy artillery), and the helicopter and transport elements of the RAF – should stay at their current levels, at least until our operations in Afghanistan are complete. Should there then be no similar campaign in prospect, they could be reduced, or more units transferred to the Territorial Army.

Within the discipline of graduated readiness, our holdings of fast jets should also be shrunk significantly…

…it is to the debate over the Navy, and its aircraft carriers, that the principle of graduated readiness must be applied in particular. Although possession of one or two modern aircraft carriers is highly desirable, it is just that – desirable, not essential. The logical decision would be to complete the first aircraft carrier (which is half-built and paid for already) and place it in “extended readiness” (which some might describe as in mothballs) until there is an evident need for the capability it could provide and the new aircraft to fly off the carrier are available.

This delay to the vessel coming into Fleet service would also be matched by a reduction in the number of Joint Strike Fighters acquired to fly off it – 50, not 135 [emphasis added, more on F-35s generally here
http://unambig.com/the-f-35-and-the-fighters-the-us-navy-still-is-buying/ ].
There would, though, be a fresh opportunity for the Royal Navy, and our ship-building industry, through the diversion of funds earmarked for the second carrier towards a modest building programme of low-cost frigates. This would both increase the capability of our surface fleet, and provide the financial headroom to retain our relatively new amphibious ships [more here
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/lpd/  ],
which give the Royal Marines their raison d’être [our Navy has no equivalent ships, and procurement efforts for the closest thing, the Joint Support Ship, have been a mess for several years
http://unambig.com/canadian-shipyards-cant-competitively-build-large-civilian-vessels-but-the-government-insists-they-build-naval-ones/ ]…

Meanwhile all our government’s “Canada First Defence Strategy” can outline is “Six Core Missions“
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/pri/first-premier/missions-eng.asp
–with absolutely no detail on what types of forces will actually be required to do what operationally in specific and practical terms, requiring what types of equipment. Just a bunch of links. Fie.

Mark
Ottawa
 
The following story from today's Daily Telegraph is reproduced under the Fair Dealings Provision of the Copyright Act. Comment: It seems like an act of desperation or perhaps a high stakes bluff.

Navy to reduce to smallest size ever to save carriers

The Navy is set to be reduced to the smallest size in its history after admirals yesterday offered drastic reductions in the fleet in order to save two new aircraft carriers from defence cuts.

By Thomas Harding and James Kirkup
Published: 10:22PM BST 07 Oct 2010

Navy chiefs yesterday offered to make cuts that would reduce the senior service to its smallest since the time of Henry VIII Photo: GETTY
Under the plans, the number of warships would be cut by almost half to just 25, with frigates, destroyers, submarines, minesweepers and all amphibious craft scrapped.

Even if built, the new carriers could sail without any British aircraft to fly from them after admirals "mortgaged everything" to persuade ministers not to abandon the £5.2 billion programme. The ships could also be delayed for years and redesigned to save money, defence sources have disclosed.

A blueprint for defence that saves money and keeps Britain secure
The Navy strikes backIn a final appeal to the National Security Council, Navy chiefs yesterday offered to make cuts that would reduce the senior service to its smallest since the time of Henry VIII.

One new aircraft carrier is already under construction, but the fate of the second has emerged as the central issue of the Government's Strategic Defence and Security Review, which is supposed to frame military planning for the next decade.

With less than two weeks until the review is due to report, government spokesmen last night insisted that "no decisions have been taken" on the second carrier.

A meeting of senior Cabinet members yesterday stopped short of a formal decision on the carrier order, although insiders now believe both ships will be built. However, the timetable and the specification for the carriers remain in the balance.

Options still on the table include delaying delivery by several years and redesigning one or both ships to carry cheaper jets or even helicopters. Alternatively, the second carrier could be built but put on "extended readiness", effectively mothballed as soon as it was completed.

Army commanders and General Sir David Richards, the new Chief of the Defence Staff, have questioned the cost of the carriers and their potential military value.

The Navy has argued that having two carriers is vital if Britain is to retain its place as a top-rank military power. Its case has been bolstered by the procurement contracts for the carriers that commit the Government to place alternative work with the shipyards even if a carrier is abandoned.

It is understood that the Navy has offered to slim down to as few as 12 surface ships, leaving it with six Type 45 destroyers and six Type 23 frigates. In addition, its submarine fleet would reduce to seven Astute hunter-killers plus the four Trident nuclear deterrent boats. With the two carriers, this would reduce the fleet by half from its current total of 42 ships.

"If we want the two carriers it means we have to mortgage everything and by that I mean reducing the fleet by almost a half," said a senior Navy source.

Navy analysts warned that the cuts would mean Britain reducing its fleet to the size of the Italian navy and almost half the size of the French.

Liam Fox, the Defence Secretary, warned in a letter leaked to The Daily Telegraph last week that the Navy could lose its entire amphibious landing capability and be unable to mount even a relatively small-scale operation such as the intervention in Sierra Leone. To prevent that outcome, ministers have discussed reconfiguring the first new carrier as a helicopter platform that would also carry Royal Marine commandos. The carrier would then ultimately replace the existing helicopter ship, HMS Ocean.

Navy sources have said that the reduction would mean Britain would find it "extremely difficult" to protect sea lanes on which 90 per cent of the country's trade relies.

It would also have to drop either anti-piracy patrols in the Middle East, protecting oil platforms in the Gulf or counter-narcotics operations in the Caribbean.

As well as defining strategic needs, ministers are trying to cut the £37 billion annual defence budget as part of the Coalition's deficit reduction plan. Even though those cuts are likely to be held well below 10 per cent, Dr Fox still has to fund a £38 billion "black hole" in the military order book.

The carriers are currently designed to carry specially built Short Take-Off Vertical Landing Jets, which are significantly more expensive than conventional catapult-launched fighters.

One option discussed at the council was delaying at least one of the new carriers and equipping it with a catapult.

Ministers debated that option to allow “interoperability” with other nations, including France and the US, whose carrier-based jets are catapult-launched.

A row has broken out over the fate of the Harrier and Tornado warplanes. One type of jet is almost certain to be retired early. The RAF, which controls the Tornado fleet, wants the Harriers scrapped. The Navy wants them saved. The row remains unresolved and retiring the Harriers remains a strong possibility.

That could mean carriers enter service even though Britain lacked warplanes to fly from them. To fill the “capability gap”, the UK would have to borrow jets from an ally.

A No 10 spokesman said: “Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.”

 
More leaking on the Fox Axe:

£16bn Future Rapid Effects System faces axe in defence cuts
Britain's largest-ever defence contract will be axed or indefinitely delayed as part of the defence cuts being imposed by the Government.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/8052782/16bn-Future-Rapid-Effects-System-faces-axe-in-defence-cuts.html

The programme, known as the Future Rapid Effects System, was supposed to supply the Army with more than 3,000 armoured vehicles at a cost of £16 billion, with "through life" cost - including maintenance and running costs over a 40-year period - reaching £60 billion.

But last night a senior Ministry of Defence source said: "FRES is dead in the water. It's a dead duck. It is the definition of everything that is wrong with the MoD's procurement process."

The decision will mean that the Army will be forced to fight in Afghanistan and in future conflicts with its existing fleet of ageing vehicles, some of which first entered service in the 1960s.

It is also understood that the Royal Navy's Type 26 Frigate also faces delay or cancellation, and up to 30,000 MoD civil servants could be axed as part of the Strategic Defence and Security Review due to be published on Oct 18.

The Type 26, also known as the Future Surface Combatant, was hailed by the First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope, as "the future backbone of the Royal Navy".

The ship, which has yet to be fully designed, has so far cost £127 million, and was due to enter service in 2020.

But The Sunday Telegraph has learnt Sir Bill Jeffrey, the MoD's permanent secretary and its most senior civil servant, has thrown his support behind the Royal Navy's £5.2 billion Carrier Strike programme.

Sources have revealed that Sir Bill, not previously regarded as a supporter of the carrier programme, has stated that it would be "economic madness" not to continue with the construction of the two 65,000-ton vessels given that £2 billion has been spent on the project already.

It is understood that both hulls will be built but one may be sold-off or put into extended readiness rather than becoming fully operational. Sir Bill has spelt out to defence ministers that cancellation fees would cost the government another £2 billion.

Officials have also warned that although the Army has escaped major cuts under in the present round, "they will feel their share of the pain" once Britain pulls out of Afghanistan in 2015.

The Sunday Telegraph understands that the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft programme will continue but numbers will be reduced from 138 to around 70 [emphasis added], reducing the £10 billion price of the contract by half...

Mark
Ottawa
 
The decision will mean that the Army will be forced to fight in Afghanistan and in future conflicts with its existing fleet of ageing vehicles, some of which first entered service in the 1960s.

That is plain crap.

What is does mean that 60 Billion pounds of through life spending will not be committed to a single super vehicle that will conform to all the Army's needs in all environments for the next umpty ump years.  Instead some or all of those funds will be available to aquire and modify technologies compatible and current with the threat as the threats develop.


I understand life-cycle costing, and when the unit price is high enough I understand the need for long term planning (but even there Max-Flex should be defined as the ability to adjust and adapt - not have everything you may ever need to meet every contingency foreseeable) but in the army's case 200,000 dollars or pounds goes a long way and a hundred vehicles is as short production run but a useful battlefield capability.
 
Does this mean the UK army FRES program is in trouble? Or did I miss something on that in this thread?
 
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