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British MP: Canada complicit in Iraq war

I dont think anyone who's boots are not currently on the ground fully understands the situation...

BTW We don't bomb - we excise with precision  ;D

FWIW - I dont think the Canadian public wants to know.  They enjoy writing to soldiers and offering support - but deep down I think they prefer not really to know what we are doing over there.  

We are at war, the time for debate and arguing transparency was prior to that - so It behooves all Canadians to support the war and the troops not to attempt to snipe from the sidelines or cower behind tinfoil hat prophesies by some foreign boob.  Honestly I would love to shoot that guy for sedition...

 
mdh said:
Well, what can I say - if you want to champion George Galloway as one of your own - knock yourself out.
I'm not a champion of his but have followed his controversial Political career.
He championed the plight of the Iraqi people due to the sanctions and yes he met Saddam as any member of another Gov. would.There is no proof of him being complicit in any Terrorism Organisation,he got labeled because of his outspokenness which has happened many times in polotics and he up set the ruling parties of both Nations and yet in the last election unseated the incumbent Labour M.P. so that says something there don't you think?
 
MDH: As one of my own? I certainly don't champion the man as some messiah for Western society but I do appreciate his opinion especially given the fact I have seen him present his position credibly and compassionately in defence of the people of the Middle East. He has a concern for the human price of war that is often overlooked. It is very important to the process of Democracy to allow for the input of people like Galloway who challenge conventions, be they political or sociological. He could not have acquired his stature without the complicity of the public, which includes you and me.

In criticism of Galloway, it must be noted that he served as a propagandistic tool which was shaped to many uses. For Saddam, he was a westerner who constantly voiced opposition to ongoing policies in Iraq. This can be inferred as incitement to terrorism or treachery to the state but unfortunately western, democratic institutions must respect  the right to freedom of self-expression. His ejection from the Labour party was probably long overdue, but as long as he serves in office he is entitled to represent the office as he sees fit.

To KevB, I understand a bullet is way cheaper to deliver than  a bomb but you know what I was getting at. I think with respect to public opinion, it depends on your locality to a great degree. In all the major urban centres there is always a focus of opposition from activists and the like simply due to concentration of numbers but in my opinion the groundswell is largely positive or in favour of CF actions overseas. the problem is how do you sell that message on  a larger scale? ie: National as opposed to Regional news coverage of the CF.

That problem has got to be figured out, when it does it will mean alot in terms of long term stability in planning for the forces and their capabilities.
 
It's not really bad mouthing but rather vocal opposition to developments that impact the lives of many more than just Saddam or the other baddies.

Was there another way to resolve the issue of Iraq? Probably,  but not necessarily within a time frame acceptable to the powers that be. I am positive that Mr. Galloway knew and understood the potential for his image being exploited and with that in mind it can be reasonably assumed that he has factored this into his public personae.

He may be a horrible messenger but don't fault the message he has tried to deliver.
 
sheikyerbouti said:
 I have seen him present his position credibly and compassionately in defence of the people of the Middle East. He has a concern for the human price of war that is often overlooked.

Oh please...  Did you read his recent remarks?

"You should raise the demand to end the Canadian occupation of Afghanistan."

"Canadian occupation of Afghanistan"?  This is typical of the rhetoric used by far-left apologists and sympathizers, of which Galloway is a shining example.  IMHO, he has absolutely no concern for the "people of the Middle East" but is interested in opposing for the sake of opposing and in his own self-promotion.  He's become the darling of the university coffee-protestor set simply because he "opposes" and uses inflamatory language to pander to his very limited political constituency.  Muslim fundamentalists, professional protestors and readers of Socialist Worker may value his point of view, but he's so far out in left field that he begins to make very little sense very quickly.

Speaking as a former "occupier of Afghanistan", he's a nutbar of the first order and should head back to the rock he crawled out from under as quickly as we can get him on the aircraft.  Of course, this won't appeal to the Simon Fraser University "Spartacist" organization or his clutch of fellow-travellers, but, frankly, I could care less.
 
Lets all be open minded and just say there is wheat amongst the chaf.
The man has good and bad points.
 
Spr.Earl said:
Lets all be open minded and just say there is wheat amongst the chaf.
The man has good and bad points.

Normally, I'm fairly middle of the road, but this apologist presses my buttons, particularly when he so obviously takes sides.   I currently have friends in Iraq and my brother served there in 2003.   The uneducated, smug, holier than thou comments on Afghanistan got to me too... Time for me to pop smoke on this thread.
 
Lets not our own feelings interfear with open and free debate which has and does often happen here on our site.
I have friends right now in the Sand Box but I don't let those on the out side get me angry.
I know my buds are doing good for the locals,did we not have the same when we were in the Balkans?
Yes Terrorism is a scourge and must be stamped out but lets not let our hearts poisen our minds to open and free thought from others not matter what the say as long as it does not hurt our own.
 
I think there is too much of a focus on the term "occupier". There is a much greater historical context to the term tha most people wish to acknowledge. The presence of non-Islamist troops in a majority Muslim society has long been opposed (the Crusades anyone) and as such, the presence of armed non-muslims in an Islamist state  can be construed today by some people as an occupation.

Provided we do little to constructively inform the Canadian and Afghan public about our efforts, then we have a lesser chance to remain involved in the long term, sustainable fashion that is central to rebuilding a society torn by war and strife for far too long.

The CF has an uphill battle on its hands in terms of public relations as long as there is little recognition of our growing footprint in the Middle East. The Balkan conflict is exemplary of CF efforts going largely unrecognized when much good is done by the hands of so relatively few.

On a personal level, greater openness of our involvement can only reinforce the CF and its requirements to sustain itself operationally be it in terms of materiel, personnel or financing. 
 
This begs the question, can more be made public?

If so, then what? And whose responsibility/decision is it to disclose such information?
 
"I think there is too much of a focus on the term "occupier". There is a much greater historical context to the term tha most people wish to acknowledge. The presence of non-Islamist troops in a majority Muslim society has long been opposed (the Crusades anyone) and as such, the presence of armed non-muslims in an Islamist state  can be construed today by some people as an occupation."

- Or even un-armed Christians.

- And I think the reverse is true as well.  More so in Europe, but increasingly in North America, there is an undercurrent of frustration and dismay in the gradual 'occupation' of our western institutions to those acting in fear of or as apologists for the Islamo-fascist resistance to our civilization in the west.

Tom
 
Too true, so how does one mitigate such reactionism? It seems to me that the best way is to fight back with information. If the enemy says "X" happened then we should say that it was really"Y" that occurred. This is classic propaganda but so what, if it serves the purpose of disseminating a positive message about your efforts then take your lumps with your sugar.

The public will listen but you will have to shout hard to get heard over all the other noise. Persistence is key to effective media.
 
"The public will listen but you will have to shout hard to get heard over all the other noise. Persistence is key to effective media."

- And effective propaganda as well.   Repeat a lie often enough, and people will believe it.   That is why the CBC is so critical to the liberalist hold on power.   If an election was called tomorrow, how much do you want to bet all of those striking workers would put down their picket signs and return to serving the greater cause of defeating That Guy From Alberta With The Scary Hidden Agenda?

Tom
 
sheikyerbouti said:
Too true, so how does one mitigate such reactionism? It seems to me that the best way is to fight back with information. If the enemy says "X" happened then we should say that it was really"Y" that occurred. This is classic propaganda but so what, if it serves the purpose of disseminating a positive message about your efforts then take your lumps with your sugar.

The public will listen but you will have to shout hard to get heard over all the other noise. Persistence is key to effective media.
What it is: how does one open peoples narrow mindedness from the present cultural foibles (racist attitudes)
I traveled the world before I joined the C.F.,I was down in Mindanao in the P.I. back in 73 when the Muslims were doing what is going on still to day,it is not a new world story about Muslims in certain country's wishing for their own home lands and wishing for autonomy,what is new is the total abstract of Islam effecting the World by those who have twisted the Koran.
In the Koran it states in so many words that all Muslims will respect Christains and Jews as we are all childran of Abraham if I remember right.

Yet of late I have learned that the Saudi's are putting out a new version of the Koran which makes all Cnristains look bad.Oh yeh a fact.
Yes I have a Koran,printed in Pakistan in 1975 and have read it,it's just like our Bible,giving spiritual guidance and prayer's,
Islam in the true sence is not evil,its just those twisted shit pumps who are giving Islam a bad name.
 
I wasn't going to post on this subject again (having presented my point of view), but thought that this editorial from today's Halifax Chronicle-Herald summed my position up nicely:

IS CANADA "occupying" Afghanistan?

Absolutely, according to radical left-wing British MP George Galloway, who lashed out at Canadians in a speech at a conference of the Islamic Circle of North America and Muslim Association of Canada in Toronto on the weekend.

"I'm amazed that so many people in Canada believe they're not part of this crime," said Galloway, making his only Canadian stop on a North American tour promoting his new book, Mr. Galloway Goes to Washington. " Canada has sent an army of 1,000 soldiers to occupy the Muslim country of Afghanistan. Your ships in the Gulf and your soldiers in Afghanistan are doing the dirty work of George W. Bush and Tony Blair. They are freeing American ships and soldiers to go to Fallujah and massacre the people of Iraq."

And so on.

Lest anyone take Galloway's swill seriously - though you have to concede, it is amazing what some Canadians seem ready to believe - let's tackle the British MP's charges, first, and then provide some context about the controversial politician absent from the news report in The Sunday Herald.

Not so very long ago, Afghanistan was ruled by the Taliban, extreme Islamic fundamentalists who banned education and employment for women and subjected them to extremely harsh restrictions (women caught wearing fingernail polish, for example, could have their fingertips chopped off; those convicted of adultery were executed in front of packed stadiums), brutally curtailed everyday activities for all, blew up 2,000-year-old Buddhist cliff carvings, despite worldwide outrage over the destruction of a global cultural treasure, and openly welcomed and harboured terrorists.

When those terrorists, led by Osama Bin Laden, attacked and killed thousands of innocent civilians in the U.S. on Sept. 11, Canada rightly joined nations around the world in condemning the perpetrators. And when the Taliban refused to turn over members of al-Qaida, this country was also right to join in ousting that heinous regime. Since then, the war-torn country - despite continuing efforts by terrorists and remnants of the Taliban to halt progress - has begun to heal, not least by emancipating women and again educating girls. A year ago, millions of Afghans braved thuggish threats by anti-democratic forces to vote in free elections. No one should naively believe that major challenges don't remain for Afghanistan, but try telling most Afghans that they're an "occupied" country. In May, the democratically-elected president of Afghanistan visited NATO headquarters to praise the organization for its vital assistance. "I particularly thank member states of the NATO countries (like Canada) for their contribution," said Hamid Karzai, "and the sacrifice that the soldiers, the sons and daughters of NATO and the countries have made in Afghanistan."

Doesn't sound much like an occupation to me.

Galloway, no surprise, is a darling of the extreme fringe of the anti-war movement, though he's so out there that many on the left want nothing to do with him. His take on Iraq is as hideous as it is hypocritical. Galloway praises the insurgency, a la Michael Moore and his idiotic "Minutemen" remark, ignoring the inconvenient fact that most victims of the terrorists and Baath loyalists have been Iraqis themselves. The Iraqi people yearn to be free and set their own course, Galloway blusters, but the insurgents he champions warned ordinary Iraqi citizens, on pain of death, not to vote in the general election last January. By the millions, they braved those threats and cast ballots.

Galloway's opinions on Iraq are, to say the least, suspect anyway. He fawned over Saddam after the first Gulf war. In a 1994 visit to Baghdad, Galloway told the brutal dictator: "Sir, I salute your courage, your strength your indefatigability. And I want you to know that we are with you until victory, until victory, until Jerusalem." And although Galloway won a libel suit last year against a British newspaper accusing him, based on suspect documents, of profiting from the UN oil-for-food program, a U.S. Senate investigation, using new evidence, has again linked Galloway to the scandal.

His opinion of other regimes is also telling. The fall of the Soviet Union, Galloway is quoted as saying, was "the biggest catastrophe of my life." This past summer, when Galloway went to Damascus, he told Syrians how "lucky" they were to have a leader like dictator Bashar al-Assad. According to the Arabic News (link missing) Galloway also met with Syrian journalists and explained that Israel's Mossad was in Iraq, training U.S. forces to demolish houses. Before Syria was forced to withdraw from Lebanon, Galloway was quoted as praising the occupation as a force for stability.

Anyway, you get the idea. For the full flavour of Mr. Galloway's warped "logic," I recommend this transcript (link missing) of the Sept. 14 debate in New York between Galloway and pro-war pundit Christopher Hitchens (who, incidentally, wiped the floor with the rogue MP).

Considering the context, then, Galloway's attacks on Canada are a sign that we did, and continue to do, the right thing in Afghanistan. Those who would champion the cause of terrorists, dictators and murderous zealots like the Taliban can heap all the abuse they like on this country. Frankly, it's a badge of honour.
 
>Sallows? was that a crack at me?

You need a map?  Don't feel badly for yourself.  Recent history is littered with the reputations of people (thought intellectual by many) who were apologists and supporters of mass murderers.

Galloway is good at seeing to Galloway's ego and Galloway's wallet.  It isn't really any more complicated than that.
 
Ruxpin's editorial hits the nail on the head but I feel the debate had evolved beyond the words of one man to that  of the long term implications of our involvement in overseas affairs.

Our presence is an irritant to some, certainly not all, but let's face it by becoming involved we have invited trouble to our doorstep. Canadians have an excruciatingly short attention span when it comes to this sort of thing. If it doesn't involve health care or education, then the issue slowly disappears in the mind of the Candian public. With the military being increasingly called upon to act then it behooves the powers that be to inform, to educate the masses of our involvement and any potential repercussions we might face as a result.

How can the forces demand the recognition they deserve without letting the taxpayer know what they are doing, how they are doing it and what they are doing it with. In other words, why the hell should I (as a taxpayer) pay for equipment and personnel when I am not being informed as to its uses.

All the public gets to see is the bad news, ie: Seakings dropping out of the sky, subs that burn or armour that never left the country. The good work that is done is often overlooked simply due to the anachronistic approach the CF has taken to inform us of its duties. A perfect example of this strategy would be Camp Mirage, somewhere in the Middle east until of course one googles the name and can come up with sat photos, maps, blogs, news reports, etc.  We live in an info-centric age that shapes our expectations, I can turn on the Tv and watch insurgent attacks against Brits or watch Chechens blow up Russian APC's or watch some 'martyr' declare his love for Palestine before he goes and takes out Sbarro pizza.

The question is, why don't the requisite leaders step up to the challenge of media awareness and fight fire with fire? If the insurgents of heywood-jablowmistan use the media to fight their battles, then why don't we?

Cold War leaders and ideas stand in our way, not the media as they simply present the news as it is delivered. Now if that news came in the form of constant reporting from in theatre or updated open source net locations then arguably the position of the CF is strengthened. Don't blame the CBC or CTV or any of the other mass media guys as they have a deadline that waits for no one. The enemy we are fighting uses these tools more effectively than we do, as they recognize the importance of feeding our appetite for information while serving ancillary roles of cultivating support and awareness for their own causes.
 
sheik,
not quite accurate, in some of the detail. The media has long since departed from the idea of impartially reporting facts. They now have agendas, and choose the 'news' they will report, and the slant they will give it. CBC is the Standard in propaganda. Goebbels could take lessons.

But, yes, we should be more proactive in putting our stories out there, and putting our spin on it. Which I think General Rick is on top of.
 
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