Buying/selling Medals Superthread [merged]

[armyvern]

Bigrex,

Personally, you can do what you want with your own medals. Why are you so against others making their own personal choices wrt to their own medals then?

What would you have to say though if someone like Mr Stoffer arbitrarily decided that you could not be buried with your medals? That once you pass on -- they revert to Crown property so that their never leaving your family or falling into the 'evil clutches' of some collector is guaranteed?

So you want buried with yours. That's your choice. Others obviously don't want buried with theirs -- that's their choice. Eventually, some family members who've received those medals -- want to part with them -- that's their choice.

Funny that you don't mind speaking out when it's not your own personal choice that the government is interfering with. You paint a mighty wide swatch with that e-bay/collector/quick-buck statement of yours.

BTW, that poser they nabbed last year -- has some threads dedicated to him right on this very site -- I just reviewed them all because your scarey arguement bringing him up made me think -- I certainly didn't recall a single peep about him actually wearing ill-gotten/unearned medals.

Maybe I just missed it, but in reviewing the previous threads regarding this poser on this forum ... I can't seem to find any mention of him wearing medals. It seems that he was usually in civvies -- telling very good (but very untrue) war stories and preying upon the unsuspecting. But I can't find any mention of him doing that with medals he managed to obtain from "scum of the earth collectors" (or ANY collector for that matter).

Another search of this site will also give you the very quote from the criminal code for charges pertaining to those who would impersonate soldiers, either by action (as in the poser aboves case), or by the wearing of a unauthorized uniform.

Yet another search, will reveal the nitty-gritty pertaining to the wearing of honours and awards which were never earned by the wearer. Short? If you personally didn't earn them -- you can't wear them ... it's that simple.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Let me set the record straight, I have no problem with the collectors themselves, as long as they are doing it legitimately, my biggest issue is the people who sell those medals for a quick buck, treating them on equal or less status as trading cards, especially by those who do not have the right to sell the medals. Personally, I want my medals buried with me, they are my last link to my time in the CF. As a person who always knew he would enter the military, to have my career cut short due to injury, my medals are a part of me that is already dead, and they will stay with me when the rest goes.

And my biggest issue is with another level of bureaucracy and big government ideas screwing with our most basic freedoms. 

If someone steals something then charge them with theft. 

Operating on the premise that "collectors are scum of the earth" and deciding that their transactions are so shady/illegal that they should be restricted is contrary to basic democracy and rule of law.  But then I wouldn't expect anything else from the scary socialists in the NDP.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Simple really, a grandfather clause,

Would supporters of Stoffer's idea please stop dressing it up as anything other than a property seizure to suit their own aesthetic preferences?  It doesn't matter how medals were earned: it's not given to you to decide how the recipients, or their assignees, or subsequent owners, may dispose of their property.

I do not collect medals and have no interest in doing so, but the proposed measure is insulting, asinine thievery.

 

[larry Strong]

How would they prove who the medals belong to, since the majority of the medals issued to Canadians are "un-named" as opposed to other nations.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I have to learn when to keep my trap shut....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20071203/ca_pr_on_na/sword_attacks

I am not mocking you Bigrex, just bad karma on my part.

dileas

tess

 

[Michael OLeary]

Published in the Halifax Daily News, Wednesday 7th March 2007

http://www.rusi.ca/ns/Selling%20medals%20isn't%20wrong.pdf

Selling medals isn't wrong
People can do whatever they want with their private property

JOHN BOILEAU
The Daily News

Military medals - more properly termed medals, orders and decorations - symbolize a number of events. Some -the most common - denote participation in a war, campaign or peacekeeping/peacemaking mission. Others represent long or distinguished service, while still others - the most rare of all - signify battlefield valour.

Medals on a soldier's chest tell a story - how long that soldier has served, campaigns in which he or she participated and any acts of courage for which the soldier was recognized.

The Black Cultural Centre's recent quest for the 1914-1919 Victory Medal awarded to Percy Fenton of No. 2 Construction Battalion has brought the issue of selling medals back into the public eye.

Many - including NDP MP Peter Stoffer - contend that selling military medals should be illegal. Stoffer even introduced a private member's bill in Parliament in 2005 to outlaw such sales.

Unfortunately, neither Stoffer nor others who believe selling medals should be a criminal act really understand the subject - or the total impracticality of what they suggest.

There is nothing wrong with selling medals, and such acts should not be illegal.

Unenforceable

In the first place, such a law is unenforceable. It would have no legal force outside this country and would do nothing to prevent medal sales internally. Selling certain drugs is also illegal, and law-enforcement agencies have been spectacularly unsuccessful in preventing this.

There are thousands of medal collectors in this country. Countless medals are bought and sold daily, in full public scrutiny.

Outlawing medal sales would simply move them to the underground.

For most of Canada's wars, campaign medals awarded to our service personnel were not Canadian medals, but British ones. Millions of them were given to soldiers across the British Empire/Commonwealth.

Beginning with the Second World War, war and campaign medals issued to Canadians were no longer engraved with the recipient's name, making it impossible to tell the nationality of the recipient.

Similarly, UN, NATO, European Union and other organizations' peacekeeping medals awarded to Canadians do not have the recipients' names inscribed. Soldiers around the world wear them, and one cannot be distinguished from the other.

Another problem is the silly notion that people are profiting from someone else's valour. While I would much rather see profit being made from someone's valour instead of their misery, this belief is misguided.

Take Fenton's medal, for example. It, like most other medals, was not awarded for valour. It simply indicates that he participated in the First World War.

More than 5.7 million Victory Medals were issued worldwide. Fenton's service was no greater or no less than the other 351,289 Canadians who received it.

The bronze Victory Medal was never issued alone, but always with the silver British War Medal. For some reason, Fenton's War Medal was not with his Victory Medal. It likely shared a fate in common with many other war medals.

Several years ago, when the value of silver exceeded the normal value of a war medal, thousands of them were irretrievably lost - melted down for their metal.

Possessions

Another criticism leveled against selling medals is that they rightfully belong in the soldier's family, not with some collector. If I sell or give away any of my possessions - from my house to a book - my descendants no longer have any claim on that item. It legally belongs to whomever I sold or gave it.

In Fenton's case, at some time either he or a family member started this chain by selling or giving away his Victory Medal - all perfectly legal. That ended his relatives' right to it.

The cost to the taxpayer of such a law must be considered. Dealers have invested millions of dollars in their stocks of medals. If selling them suddenly became illegal, these individuals would have a rightful claim against the government for reimbursement.

Additionally, what would dealers and collectors be expected to do with their current holdings? Trace the recipients' families and give them back?

That is clearly an impossible task.

Much of our military history would have been irrevocably lost without medal dealers and collectors.

They have saved thousands of medals from being discarded, traced their provenance and carefully safeguarded them.

In fact, if it weren't for dealers and collectors, it is unlikely Percy Fenton's medal would ever be close to finding its rightful home in the Black Cultural Centre.

johnboileau AT eastlink.ca
John Boileau was awarded five medals during his military career - all for just being there.

 

[larry Strong]

The scum of the earth, are those that break up groupings and sell the individual parts.



Young trooper goes overseas in 1941, marries a Brit girl and is KIA 3 weeks before the end of the war. They come up on E-bay in Ireland. 2nd high bidder lives in Liverpool, highest is a Canadian. Under Mr Sotfers law that little piece of histroy would have been lost forever.

 

[TCBF]

Because they don't want to preserve history - they want to re-write it!

Medals are evil - think the Left:  they see them as trinkets celebrating the glory of our evil Western Civilazation.  They are reminders of foriegn colonial/globalist wars against heroic liberation fronts and proletarian revolutionaries.

Medals held by a collector or family always bring a story.  With the family or collector - that story is often an honourable truth.  Once those medals have been siezed by the state, the truth is replaced by a more 'relevant' protocol and the medals 'stored' in a convenient melted format.

Wait for it.

 

[Navy_Blue]

Well I got to this kinda late. 

Let me first say that Peter Stoffer is a uncommon supporter and loud voice speaking for all things military.  Unfortunately he is in the Taliban.... Oops I mean NDP party  ;D.  I have seen him on TV and at public events countless times and (more than most defence ministers) in support of what we do and regardless of what party he is in, we need it.  It is probably more important in the party he is in.  As far as him labeling all collectors as scum I think its a bit overboard.  Mr Stoffer is miss guided but means well.  I plan to respectfully E mail him and inform him after this post is complete.

My father is an avid collector of all things military and he goes to plowing matches, schools and any where he can get a table to try and share our history.  Its not uncommon for countries with many more years of history to protect their antiques and not allow them to be exported.  Also in many cases those same countries fight and win to have antiques repatriated.  Our war medals should be in the same boat.  It pains me to think any of our Victoria Crosses might have found homes over seas.  Legislation (not allowing export) of this type may be toothless but it might encourage some families to put the effort into finding homes for our heritage that will respect display and share it in this country, including private collectors.

 

[George Wallace]

...........  Legislation (not allowing export) of this type may be toothless but it might encourage some families to put the effort into finding homes for our heritage that will respect display and share it in this country, including private collectors.

There is Legislation.  Canada has signed an agreement with several nations, and passed legsislation in the form of the Cultural Properties Act.

 

[Navy_Blue]

Do our medals fall into such legislation?

 

[George Wallace]

Cultural Property
Export and Import Act

CANADIAN CULTURAL PROPERTY EXPORT CONTROL LIST

Establishment of Control List

4. (1) The Governor in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister made after consultation with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, may by order establish a Canadian Cultural Property Export Control List.

Inclusions

(2) Subject to subsection (3), the Governor in Council may include in the Control List, regardless of their places of origin, any objects or classes of objects hereinafter described in this subsection, the export of which the Governor in Council deems it necessary to control in order to preserve the national heritage in Canada:

(a) objects of any value that are of archaeological, prehistorical, historical, artistic or scientific interest and that have been recovered from the soil of Canada, the territorial sea of Canada or the inland or other internal waters of Canada;

(b) objects that were made by, or objects referred to in paragraph (d) that relate to, the aboriginal peoples of Canada and that have a fair market value in Canada of more than five hundred dollars;

(c) objects of decorative art, hereinafter described in this paragraph, that were made in the territory that is now Canada and are more than one hundred years old:

(i) glassware, ceramics, textiles, woodenware and works in base metals that have a fair market value in Canada of more than five hundred dollars, and

(ii) furniture, sculptured works in wood, works in precious metals and other objects of decorative art that have a fair market value in Canada of more than two thousand dollars;

(d) books, records, documents, photographic positives and negatives, sound recordings, and collections of any of those objects that have a fair market value in Canada of more than five hundred dollars;

(e) drawings, engravings, original prints and water-colours that have a fair market value in Canada of more than one thousand dollars; and

(f) any other objects that have a fair market value in Canada of more than three thousand dollars.

Exclusions

(3) No object shall be included in the Control List if that object is less than fifty years old or was made by a natural person who is still living.

Deeming provision

(4) For the purposes of this Act, an object within a class of objects included in the Control List is deemed to be an object included in the Control List.

R.S., 1985, c. C-51, s. 4; 1995, c. 5, s. 25.

 

[TN2IC]

I know this may be an old thread. But I thought it would be good to raise it from the dead for a tad.

Anywho today, I had the chance to talk to Peter Stoffer at one of the levee spots. I ask him into his views about his collectors bill. It seems to me, he does make sense. I agree with that. And only that of the NDP Party. He gave an example stating a few weeks ago, an older veteran sold his medals to a "collector" which then sold it on eBay behind the veterans back.

Peter gave me his idea on what to do with the medals. He said that he seen a school in Yarmouth NS. And in there, one wall is full of shadow boxes with medals and history on these veterans. To educate the kids on what the veterans gave up for us. Very touching idea if I say. I would love to visit it someday.

But one thing that surprised me was how he places the names of the "collector". Today he refer to them as "monsters" to me. Seem a tad biases. But I like to try to keep an open mind.

I was going to ask him his personal view of Afghanistan. Not the NDP view, but his own. *Stir the pot* But I ran out of time and had to get back to work.


Disclaimer: I'm not a supporter of the NDP... I just felt it was a moment to shoot a question out there.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I am a collector, so I guess that makes me a "monster" in the views of one Member of Parliament.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Hi,

I in line with Mr. O,

I too am a monster.

dileas

tess

 

[TN2IC]

I can understand to be a collector. But to make major profit off somebodies medals? May be I'm not thinking clear. Don't get me wrong guys. I just wanted to add that little part, last post there.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

 

[the 48th regulator]

I can understand to be a collector. But to make major profit off somebodies medals? May be I'm not thinking clear. Don't get me wrong guys. I just wanted to add that little part, last post there.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Please start from here, already been hashed ad nauseum, and no I don't understand....

dileas

tess

 

[Michael OLeary]

I can understand to be a collector. But to make major profit off somebodies medals? May be I'm not thinking clear. Don't get me wrong guys. I just wanted to add that little part, last post there.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

If the issue is profiteering, why limit it to medals?  Why target the collectors of medals?

Is profiteering on "Grandma's china" more ethical when the purpose is to cheat the original owner?

Are you trying to support that profiteering is unethical, or that medal collecting is?  Peter Stoffer certainly seems to have confused the two issues?

 

[TN2IC]

Are you trying to support that profiteering is unethical, or that medal collecting is?  Peter Stoffer certainly seems to have confused the two issues?

It's hard for me to say. I'm more in the dark on it. 50/50 let's say. Peter's case is a tad in the confused zone. This thread does open a lot of doors.
Please do forgive me if you found I was referring to you or 48th regulator as "unethical monsters".  That was not my intentions.

Edit to add a few words.

 

[1feral1]

Hi,

I in line with Mr. O,

I too am a monster.

dileas

tess

Monster's Inc - AKA Bastards Inc (army.ca chapter)

Yes I too am a collector, a Frankenstein, or should I say Freakenstein.

Yes ,I am in the possession of some medals and commemortive WW1 plaques which do not belong to me, and along with other memoribilia from WW1 to present.

I am a criminal in the eyes of some, right Mr Stoffer?


Wes