Buying/selling Medals Superthread [merged]

[Michael Dorosh]

Importing Canadian goods is already exempt from duties, is it not?  I believe uniform collectors have discussed this at my board before.  if you are repatriating Canadian uniforms, for example, there should be no import fees, if you can demonstrate they were made in Canada. 

 

[the 48th regulator]

Is there a website or info board where I can check out private collectors and thier displays.  I would like to  check out the items since they maintian them better than our museums.

cheers
tess

 

[Walt]

Many valid points have been presented in this thread, both pro & con. Consider this issue from another perspective.

The fate of a veteran's medals should remain their personal decision. I have had the pleasure to know many vets over the years, some of whom were family members. Sadly, all have sinced passed on. For some, it was their wish to have their medals burried with them. For others, their medals were willed to an individual or organization. One sold his to a jeweller, because in a difficult financial situation, the monetary value of the silver was more valuable to him than having the medals stuffed away in a shoe box. Another veteran even refused to accept his medals upon returning to Canada after WWII. He was so horrifed by what he had witnessed to the extent that he wanted no reminder. Four very different choices. Nevertheless, they had the freedom for which they fought to make their own personal decisions.  

Walt

 

[Long in the tooth]

I have four humble gonges, 11 from my father and father in law. 6 from my grandfather.   These are not ones that should be for sale.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I have four humble gonges, 11 from my father and father in law. 6 from my grandfather.  These are not ones that should be for sale.

So don't sell them.  Problem solved.... ???

 

[STONEY]

Why is it necessary to ridicule the NDP member and call it idiocy because he and some vets believe strongly about something ,they too have a right to opinions on the subject. I value their opinion more than some others.  A lot of you would probably have argued against seat belt legislation because it infringed on your right of choice, despite having been proven over and over to save countless lives. Sometimes the GOV. has a duty to save the masses from themselves. I've no love for the NDP but maybe Peter Stouffer just believes strongly on the subject , you probably know nothing of him or his family history. Everyone has a opinion pro, con or ambivilant but its no reason to call them idiots.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Why is it necessary to ridicule the NDP member and call it idiocy because he and some vets believe strongly about something ,they too have a right to opinions on the subject. I value their opinion more than some others.  A lot of you would probably have argued against seat belt legislation because it infringed on your right of choice, despite having been proven over and over to save countless lives. Sometimes the GOV. has a duty to save the masses from themselves. I've no love for the NDP but maybe Peter Stouffer just believes strongly on the subject , you probably know nothing of him or his family history. Everyone has a opinion pro, con or ambivilant but its no reason to call them idiots.

Can we call you an idiot instead?

Name one single way in which a veteran would be benefitted by this bill, should it become law.  It's not about the veterans, it's about the NDP skiving from having to put up money in the future for Canadian medals.

 

[Infanteer]

I've no love for the NDP but maybe Peter Stouffer just believes strongly on the subject , you probably know nothing of him or his family history. Everyone has a opinion pro, con or ambivilant but its no reason to call them idiots.

I've met him on multiple occasions.  Although he has a real interest in the Canadian Forces, his knowledge is next to zero.  I remember listening to him explain why we should ban pistols and semi-automatic weapons from Canada - so you can guess how seriously I took him from there.

 

[Ghost]

The NDP is retarded

If you really care so much about medals then friggin cough up the money to buy them off the people who are selling them and take care of them yourself.

If somebody wants to keep them than they will,  if they don't want them then they can do what ever they like with them,  why can they do that you ask?  Because the medal belongs to the person who owns it not the NDP.

I hope that if I win a war medal its nice and pointy so it will really hurt the person who tells me what I and can't do with it when I shove it up their ass.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I see another MP is planning a private member's bill which will soften this considerably, instead giving the Canadian government the right of first refusal on any medal sales including a Canadian Victoria Cross.  A much better compromise, I think.

 

[Highland Lad]

To all those of you who have issues with what to do with your medals, or medals you currently have custody of, my response is simple: Leave a will, so that everyone knows what is to be done.

As was pointed out above, in this specific case, the widow died intestate (had no will), and the family could not agree amongst themselves as to the correct action to be taken. IMHO, any legislation about restrictions, first refusals, or whatnot, would have to include some caveat stating that, in the absence of clear instructions to the contrary, the federal government or its institutions should have first refusal on any sale of medals or historical militaria (perhaps followed by the relevant regimental organizations/museums).

Cheers.

 

[kellywmj]

Considering what it takes to be awarded a VC, or any similar award of valour, who the f&!# has ANY right to tell that vet what he can or can't do with it!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

That vet is dead and if he had left a will, his wishes would have been respected.  But, he did not, therefore......

 

[Cloud Cover]

The sale of the medals does not erase the history that went into the awarding of the honour.The medal is private property, the history is public knowledge and it seems to me that should properly satisfy the principal participants: the public, historians and the recipient.

I agree with Michael re the NDP's goals on this matter.

Incidentally, it is not impossible for a Canadian court to have Canadian law enforced in a foreign jurisdiction, this happens frequently in commercial disputes. In addition,we also permit foreign courts to interpret, apply and enforce Canadian law for certain disputes which might not have even taken place in Canada, for example illegal trading in war medals contrary to Canadian law. A person who sells a medal to a foreigner could draw up a simple contract stating the contract is governed by the laws of Canada, or even the laws of the Province of Ontario, Alberta or B.C.

 

[1feral1]

Medals are infact personal private property, and if any government want to toy with DICTATING or governing what you own, and what you can do with it, thats going towards 'Stalinism' as far as I am concerned.

Look at the gun laws for example, and we all know what a disaster that is.

My '2 Bob'

Beers,

Wes

 

[dutchie]

I used to be very much against the sale of medals, primarily due to a misguided belief that a lot of callous children/grandchildren of vets sell off the valour medals of their Grandfathers when they either die or when they become infirm.

I now have a completely different opinion - they are private and personal property. Those men earned (not won) those medals, and if they choose to sell them, or allow their children etc to sell them, so be it. If their kids see no value in them (as they obviously should), forcing them to keep them will not change that. In fact, in that case, I would rather they be sold to someone (or some organization) that DOES see value in them.

Either way, it's none of my bees-wax (nor the Govt's) what hthe Vet or his family does with them.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Those men earned (not won) those medals, and if they choose to sell them, or allow their children etc to sell them, so be it.

Some medals were "won", however (just to pick flyshit from pepper for a second); periodic awards (as opposed to immediate awards) were sometimes pulled out of a hat in cases where many men participated in an action and it was decided that only a fraction of them would be entitled to an award.   In such cases, the recipient could count on luck as much as individual bravery.   We really didn't have a fool-proof system for giving out awards in Canada (I doubt one is possible), though the Germans in WW II, for example, were much more generous with not only giving out awards, but also meaningful ones.  

Whereas some American awards are for marksmanship, completing basic training, and other service-oriented awards (we did the same thing, to a lesser degree, with the 39-43 (later 45) Star and CVSM), the Germans tended to reward combat skills and experiences - a badge for participating in three infantry assaults, tank battles, or general engagements; another badge for singlehanded destruction of an enemy AFV, another for wounds received in action, plus three basic grades of the Iron Cross (about 1 in 4 German soldiers had the II Class award by the end of the War - some vets simply say "everyone got one") which you couldn't be awarded without the lower class already being in your possession (though concurrent awards were possible in rare cases).

Guy Simonds - Corps Commander and fill-in Army Commander in WW II - was of the opinion that campaign medals "would suffice" and that other awards were unnecessary.   I think a system somewhere in between the German and the Canadian system would be in order; the Americans may have actually gotten it right.   Certainly the Combat Infantry Badge is an elegant design and means more to many veterans than any of their ribbons.

For the most part, though, you are correct that there are no "winners" - I always make a point of saying Victoria Cross holder or Victoria Cross recipient.   They didn't "win" anything.

There are, just for interests' sake, one or two MMs and MiDs that were drawn by lots as mentioned above.

Oh, I have nothing against service awards, incidentally - the Germans had a medal for being in 4 years, and another for 12; I am quite proud of my CD.   The CPSM was a bit silly, but good intentioned (I call it the medal you get for getting a medal) and fits in well with the series of CVSM and the service medal for Korea.   I think it too bad, though, that we were so stingy with medals in WW II (I have a list of VC nominees on my site that would have done the medal proud) and never really designed any kind of meaningful recognition of combat service.   Staff clerks at Army Headquarters got the exact same 5 ribbon bar that the frontline infantrymen got.

Another reason that museums have so many redundant medals; everyone got the same thing.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Angry hero's war medals go on block

By TU THANH HA

MONTREAL -- Dollard Ménard was once the country's most famous French-speaking soldier, lionized as a hero after he continued to direct his men despite being wounded five times during the bloody 1942 raid on Dieppe.

Now, eight years after Brigadier-General Ménard's death, his youngest son is auctioning off his father's medals, saying he is frustrated with his attempts to sell them to federal and provincial officials.

The medals and other possessions go on the block at Empire Auctions in Montreal Jan 23-27.

Brig.-Gen. Ménard held, among other awards, the Distinguished Service Order, the French Legion of Honour and the United Nations Bronze Medal for Peacekeeping.

He was only 29 at Dieppe, but "those boys would follow Colonel Ménard to Hell if he told them to," one of his men said after the raid.

But his later years were marred by quarrels after he said he would vote Yes in the 1980 referendum.

He wasn't a separatist but wanted Quebec to have more bargaining power.

Other generals mocked him, with one even suggesting that his mind had been clouded by his war injuries. He sued them for libel, then settled out of court. In 1992, he wasn't invited to the 50th anniversary of the Dieppe raid, telling his family that he was snubbed because of his politics.

He died in 1997 at age 83.

Storage of the soldier's belongings costs hundreds of dollars a month, said his son, Charles Ménard, who is the executor of the estate. "In the end, I had no choice."

Mr. Ménard said he first approached the Canadian War Museum four years ago. Discussions lasted several months.

The museum gives tax credits, but "we typically don't buy artifacts. We don't have the budget for that," museum director Joe Geurts said.

Also, Mr. Geurts said, the museum was reluctant to accept the entire collection. It ranges from flintlock muskets to a carved head Brig-Gen. Ménard found at the Khyber Pass while with the Army of India.

"Our family can't live on a tax credit," Mr. Ménard said, adding that he had a mandate to liquidate the estate.

He said federal officials are being stingy toward the estate of a war hero who raised millions of dollars in a war bonds drive. "I'm not after political gains or other gains."

He was celebrated in front-page newspaper articles and his heroics were used to promote the war effort, especially since Quebec opposed conscription.

News of the auction shocked retired Lieutenant-Colonel Gilles Bissonnette, curator of the Fusiliers Mont-Royal museum, Brig.-Gen Ménard's Dieppe unit.

"This makes no sense. It should be kept in our patrimony," he said. "He's got medals that not too many people have."

The museum should try to purchase the medals, said Cliff Chadderton, chairman of the National Council of Veteran Associations. "This is what I'd call a slap to the faces of French-speaking soldiers who were at Dieppe."

A DSO fetches anywhere from $2,500 to $3,000 but is worth more when sold with other medals, said Stu Christie, curator of the War Amputees Museum.

After talks with the War Museum came to a dead end, Mr. Ménard turned to Parti Québécois Leader Bernard Landry in 2002.

Mr. Landry, who was then premier, thought that the province's Culture Department might acquire some items, his press secretary, Annick Bélanger, said.

A spokeswoman said the department looked at the file and referred Mr. Ménard to a federal military museum in Quebec City.

Mr. Ménard said his dealings with officials became too much of a struggle.

He said he hoped the eventual buyer "will finally lay to rest my father's soul by putting the medals on a Canadian flag."

His misgivings date from his father's referendum views. After the general's death, Mr. Ménard said, the military insisted on organizing the funerals, but wouldn't honour his father's wish to have his coffin draped with the flags of Canada, Quebec and the United Nations.

Empire Auctions president Abraham Rogozinsky said: "Anything military like this will generate interest across Canada. It's not like you're selling a batch of medals of nobody of importance."

The DSO ranks just below the Victoria Cross, the Commonwealth's top award for bravery. Two Canadians earned VCs at Dieppe but were both captured.

Brig.-Gen. Ménard, who was a lieutenant-colonel, evaded capture. He later said that his experiences at Dieppe affected him so much that he shunned barbecues because he couldn't stand the smell of burning flesh.

 

[George Wallace]

Now this line really rubbed me the wrong way:

"Our family can't live on a tax credit," Mr. Ménard said, adding that he had a mandate to liquidate the estate.

Most Museums operate this way.  They do not have millions of dollars to purchase artifacts.  They issue Tax Receipts whereby the donors can claim it towards their taxes at 'Tax Time'.  This makes Mr Ménard look like a money grabbing opportunist.

I also find it interesting that it is costing him $100 a month to store these artifacts.  Doesn't the family have any higher respect and value for these artifacts than to put them away in a commercial storage facility?

GW

 

[Infanteer]

I think a system somewhere in between the German and the Canadian system would be in order; the Americans may have actually gotten it right.   Certainly the Combat Infantry Badge is an elegant design and means more to many veterans than any of their ribbons.

I am in agreement here with you Michael.  Van Crevald had an interesting point on the same topic in his book Fighting Power in that there was an award system that rewarded consistent and repeated acts of independent leadership under fire.  While the award wasn't intended to reward soldiers for doing their job, it was seen as something that recognized stellar performance under fire.  It was something different then our own system which intends to recognize extreme acts of courage in the face of danger.