C3 Howitzer Replacement

[markppcli]

A little bit of armour and I suspect more carrying capacity.

I don’t know how much practical difference there really is?

The UC is an archaic design with limited armour and relatively high maintenance needs as compared to a side by side or quad.

What do we need to have to replace the C3?

Something common.

Something reliable.

Something capable of firing within the existing range templates.

Something with a digital fire control system compatible with both the RegF and PRes training abilities

Something with an integral training capability (dry firing/simulation)

Something that will fit within current armouries and RegF vehicle bays.

The problem is, procurement is, as always, stunted, and behind the curve. That curve is approaching the point of collapse due to the limited number of C-3's that are still serviceable.

briefing we got today still has Indirect Fire Modernization as unfunded with a tentative implementation in the 2030s.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I don’t know how much practical difference there really is?

briefing we got today still has Indirect Fire Modernization as unfunded with a tentative implementation in the 2030s.

Technically the Loyd carrier would be the crossover to the modern ATV/Supacat as they are both unarmoured, The UC did do some of the transport.ammo/wire stringing, etc, but was also used as a recce vehicle, AT gun tractor and APC. So the Weisel is the heir to most of that role. It was likley the most successful multi-role vehicle in history, likley even more than the Jeep. I really don't see a modern equivalent to it, as the roles have been divided up between more role specific vehicles.

 

[GK .Dundas]

What does a universal Carrie’s give my AT det that a quad doesn’t ?

Bags and bags of panache and style.....not mention a wee bit of armour.
Or we could go to the German Wiesel.

 

[markppcli]

Bags and bags of panache and style.....not mention a wee bit of armour.
Or we could go to the German Wiesel.

Or we could have TUA (or JAV UA, or just a ACSV with guys inside) LAV6s and MRZRs carrying the team and bobs your uncle. If I remember the TOW Platoon in battle correctly, we work on the assumption that the AT will receive fire after it unmasks, and that it will likely be indirect. So an open topped carrier is probably no ideal. Of course neither is a quad but it had advantages in portability and being able to be easily concealed when the at team occupies a position.

 

[Maxman1]

Bags and bags of panache and style.....not mention a wee bit of armour.
Or we could go to the German Wiesel.

The Swedish have an AT version of the Bv206, the PvBv2063. And there's the new Bv210 we're in the process of acquiring.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Swedish have an AT version of the Bv206, the PvBv2063. And there's the new Bv210 we're in the process of acquiring.

BV 210....

 

[Kirkhill]

Ukraine war has given Estonian military 'confidence' in its forces

Russia's neighbour Estonia has invested heavily in long-range capabilities since Moscow invaded Ukraine almost a year ago.

www.forces.net

Some take aways

Estonia wants help from its friends.
But it can't rely on them
So it has to rely on itself

The Estonian Land Forces is the main arm of the defence forces. The average size of the military formation in peacetime is about 6,700 of whom about 3,200 are conscripts.[19] The Army component of the operational structure consists of 2 infantry brigades. Both infantry brigades act as training and support frames for deployable units. The Land Force development priorities are the capability to participate in missions outside the national territory and the capability to perform operations to protect the territory of Estonia, also in co-operation with the Allies.

Estonian Special Operations Force ESTSOF is the special operations command of the Estonian Defence Forces. Its tasks include special reconnaissance and surveillance, military support and direct action. The primary objective of the Special Operations Force is the development of capabilities for unconventional warfare.

The Estonian Defence League (Estonian: Eesti Kaitseliit) is the name of the unified paramilitary armed forces of the Republic of Estonia. The Defence League is a paramilitary defence organization whose aim is to guarantee the preservation of the independence and sovereignty of the state, the integrity of its land area and its constitutional order.

The Defence League possesses arms and engages in military exercises, fulfilling the tasks given to it by the law. The organization is divided into 4 Territorial Defence Districts that consist of 15 Defence League regional units, called malevs, whose areas of responsibility mostly coincide with the borders of Estonian counties.

The Defence League is a voluntary military national defence organisation, which acts in the area of government of the Ministry of Defence. The Defence League possesses arms and engages in military exercises. The main goal of the Defence League is, on the basis of the citizens’ free will and initiative, to enhance the readiness of the nation to defend its independence and its constitutional order, including in the event of military threat.

The Defence League plays an important role in supporting the civil structures. Its members aid in putting out wildfires, volunteer as assistant police members, and ensure safety at various events. Units, consisting of voluntary members of the Defence League, also participate in international peace support operations such as in the Balkan states. The Defence League and its affiliated organisations have positive relations with partner organisations in the Nordic countries, the United States, and the United Kingdom.

Size (Territorials)	Total: 25,550 (2020) Active members: 14,002 (2020)

Estonia is pushing its cannons and ATGMs forwards to the Ukrainians to kill Russian tanks so they won't have to face them in Estonia.

Estonia is building up its Long Range Precision Fires inventory of MRLS and HIMARS because

Quote 1:20 Hanno Pevku Estonian Defence Minister

Approximately 80% of the killed in action are coming not from the close fight but the long fire and that is why we changed here our ideas very quickly acquiring HIMARS and new K9 Self Propelled Howitzers.

And this is with a regular army of Two Brigades (3500 full timers and 3200 conscripts) and a Territorial Force of 15 to 25,000 in peacetime.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Swedish have an AT version of the Bv206, the PvBv2063. And there's the new Bv210 we're in the process of acquiring.

Seriously? It's not nice to play with the affections of the peasantry like that.

 

[Kirkhill]

Please Sir! I want more.​

​

Estonia​

Professional army of 3200
Conscripts of 3500
Territorial Volunteers of 15 to 25,000

2 Permanent Brigades

6 HIMARS
36 K9 155mm SPHs

44 CV9035 with 27 CV90 support vehicles
136 Patria Pasia 6x6 WAPC (13.5 tonnes - 2+16 Pax)

18 Spike-LR II - 10 km when wireless - 5.5 km tripod
80-120 Javelin CLUs with 350 missiles - 2.5 to 5 km
CG-84 M2/M3/M4 all in service
Installaza 90mm disposable RPG launcher.

100 Polish Piorun SAM launchers with 300 missiles (IR homing)
??? Mistral SAM (IR homing)
ZU-23-2 Light Anti-Aircraft gun.

Estonia buys 12 more K9 Thunders from South Korea for €36 million

The Estonian Centre for Defence Investment has signed a contract with a total volume of €36 million to acquire an additional twelve K9 Thunder self-propelled howitzers from South Korean arms manufacturer Hanwha Techwin.

estonianworld.com

Estonia buys HIMARS, as eastern allies boost artillery arsenals

Lockheed Martin is booking orders from a growing number of countries, as U.S. Army officials promote joint operational concepts for artillery in Europe.

www.defensenews.com

Anti-tank weapons[edit]​

Model	Image	Origin	Type	Caliber	Notes
Instalaza C90		Spain	Anti-tank grenade launcher	90mm	C90-CR-AM, C90-CR-BK and C90-CR-RB variants are in use.[33][34][35] Initial batch purchased in 2009. More purchased in 2010, 2018 and 2022.[36][37][38]
Carl Gustav		Sweden	Anti-tank recoilless rifle	84mm	M2, M3 and M4 variants are in use.[39][40][41]
Spike		Israel	Anti-tank guided missile	130mm	18 Spike-LR II systems delivered in 2020.[42][43] In addition, more than 500 Spike-SR systems purchased in 2022.[44]
Javelin		United States	Anti-tank guided missile	127mm	80 CLUs (with option for additional 40) and 350 missiles purchased from the United States.[45] Block-0 and Block-1 missiles supplied with United States European Reassurance Initiative funds.[46]

Anti-aircraft weapons[edit]​

Model	Image	Origin	Type	Caliber	Notes
ZU-23-2		Soviet Union	Autocannon	23×152mm	Purchased from Israel in 1993.[23][47]
Mistral		France	Surface-to-air missile	90mm	Purchased in 2007.[48] Mistral 3 missiles received in 2015 and 2018.[49]
PPZR Piorun		Poland	Man-portable air-defense system	72mm	100 launchers with 300 missiles ordered in September 2022.[50]

 

[FJAG]

So with a RegF of 3,200 and 3,500 conscripts you can create this balanced organization.

With some of the battalions on the right marked "reserve". Interesting.

 

[markppcli]

So with a RegF of 3,200 and 3,500 conscripts you can create this balanced organization.

With some of the battalions on the right marked "reserve". Interesting.

Where does regular end, and reserv orconscript begin? Hard to really do analysis without that I understanding.

Nm I did the research for is.

The Estonian Bdes are not fully manned. The only professional, full time, unit is the Scouts Bn. Either Bde is manned at full strength unless it’s wartime. So no that’s not what those numbers give you.

 

[FJAG]

Where does regular end, and reserv orconscript begin? Hard to really do analysis without that I understanding.

Nm I did the research for is.

The Estonian Bdes are not fully manned. The only professional, full time, unit is the Scouts Bn. Either Bde is manned at full strength unless it’s wartime. So no that’s not what those numbers give you.

That's my point exactly. We have two brigades here properly constituted, organized, balanced with support weapons, and equipped (and getting better equipped) and pretty much running on a small mixture of RegF, and conscripts/ResF.

We have an army of 22,500 RegF and 16,000 ResF and we have - three brigades (four if you count 6 CCSB) (I refuse to count 10 administrative CSBs)

I know, I know that there is more to it then that, but the numbers (and the payrolls) are so outrageously disparate, that one simply has to shake one's head and think about it.

 

[markppcli]

That's my point exactly. We have two brigades here properly constituted, organized, balanced with support weapons, and equipped (and getting better equipped) and pretty much running on a small mixture of RegF, and conscripts/ResF.

We have an army of 22,500 RegF and 16,000 ResF and we have - three brigades (four if you count 6 CCSB) (I refuse to count 10 administrative CSBs)

I know, I know that there is more to it then that, but the numbers (and the payrolls) are so outrageously disparate, that one simply has to shake one's head and think about it.

Your misreading. They don’t have two Bdes. They have the skeletons of two Bdes if they mobilize their reserves. They have a Bn plus some skeleton Bns that training a rotation of conscripts.

Take their 1st Bde. The Kalev Bn as an example
consists of a single infantry company, while the other conscript Bn has 3 training companies. It would be like calling the 3CDTC an infantry Bn. That Bde really has a single battalion and an artillery Bn. 2nd Bde has a training Bn, and the rest is reserves.

I know we all agree the CAF isn’t optimal, but that doesn’t mean it’s an utter catastrophe incapable of managing to organize a force equivalent to Estonia.

 

[FJAG]

Your misreading. They don’t have two Bdes. They have the skeletons of two Bdes if they mobilize their reserves. They have a Bn plus some skeleton Bns that training a rotation of conscripts.

Take their 1st Bde. The Kalev Bn as an example
consists of a single infantry company, while the other conscript Bn has 3 training companies. It would be like calling the 3CDTC an infantry Bn. That Bde really has a single battalion and an artillery Bn. 2nd Bde has a training Bn, and the rest is reserves.

I know we all agree the CAF isn’t optimal, but that doesn’t mean it’s an utter catastrophe incapable of managing to organize a force equivalent to Estonia.

Maybe it's the fact that they have 36 K9s and six HIMARS coming to augment their two hundred IFV/APC and Javelin missiles and Spike missiles and air defence missiles that makes me think that they are way better at managing their 1 Billion Euro budget then Canada is at managing its.

I see the Kalev battalion as a good example of a 30/70 unit.

 

[markppcli]

Maybe it's the fact that they have 36 K9s and six HIMARS coming to augment their two hundred IFV/APC and Javelin missiles and Spike missiles and air defence missiles that makes me think that they are way better at managing their 1 Billion Euro budget then Canada is at managing its.

If we could pay our privates 115 Euros a month that would probably leave a lot left over. Some how I think we’d struggle to attract recruits though.

Eesti.ee

www.eesti.ee

I see the Kalev battalion as a good example of a 30/70 unit.

Well if it was assigned reservists maybe. It’s literally one company plus an HQ. It’s the other that has three “training companies” which seem to be responsible for training from day 1 through.

In short it’s not a like for like system and they able to make substantial savings by virtue of a conscription service. They “output” is also substantially less.

 

[Kirkhill]

If we could pay our privates 115 Euros a month that would probably leave a lot left over. Some how I think we’d struggle to attract recruits though.

Eesti.ee

www.eesti.ee

Well if it was assigned reservists maybe. It’s literally one company plus an HQ. It’s the other that has three “training companies” which seem to be responsible for training from day 1 through.

In short it’s not a like for like system and they able to make substantial savings by virtue of a conscription service. They “output” is also substantially less.

Yes

But can they kill Russians?

 

[childs56]

Where does regular end, and reserv orconscript begin? Hard to really do analysis without that I understanding.

Nm I did the research for is.

The Estonian Bdes are not fully manned. The only professional, full time, unit is the Scouts Bn. Either Bde is manned at full strength unless it’s wartime. So no that’s not what those numbers give you.

But if they have the leadership and the equipment you can fill with Reserves. Which would give them a properly equipped and tasked reserve army that might attract more recruits.
I always thought that was the concept behind so many Officers spread around the Country and concentrated in NDHQ, that was until you see the protectionism of not going to the field by the Bdg HQ people

 

[markppcli]

Yes

But can they kill Russians?

So I was explaining why the Estonian force structure looks the way it does, and how it’s actually not really what most of NATO would consider Brigades in that they essentially include schools. Obviously that’s a little nuanced and involves some research so I’ll drop it and rephrase it more simply:

Would you want your week 1 BMQ platoon in a trench in eastern Ukraine? Sure they may kill a Russia, but frankly so can anyone, since “can” is an absurdly vague term that has no real standard. The better question to ask for a peace time army is “are they ready to kill an enemy, and survive the battle field right now” the answer to that question is no. They are not.

But if they have the leadership and the equipment you can fill with Reserves. Which would give them a properly equipped and tasked reserve army that might attract more recruits.

Yeah you could, but that’s not what those other two Bns in the Estonian 1st Bde are. One is a single company which handles, fro what I can tell, more advanced training of conscripts, the other is a flat out turn civilians into soldiers conscript training Bn. They’re training them on the Pasis and I imagine if the balloon went up they’d expect to use the Bn as infantry but it’s not really what we’d think of as and infantry battalion. The reserves man the other Bde. I’m all for the idea of calling guys “back to the colours” to rapidly build up the army. And i fully agree reservists have an important role to play, im just pointing out that using the two brigades Estonia has as a cost to production analysis is as flawed as counting our 5 Divisions as actual divisions.

I always thought that was the concept behind so many Officers spread around the Country and concentrated in NDHQ, that was until you see the protectionism of not going to the field by the Bdg HQ people

Depends on the Bde, CBG yeah absolutely do not go to the field, CMBG - lots of field time.

 

[FJAG]

So I was explaining why the Estonian force structure looks the way it does, and how it’s actually not really what most of NATO would consider Brigades in that they essentially include schools. Obviously that’s a little nuanced and involves some research so I’ll drop it and rephrase it more simply:

Would you want your week 1 BMQ platoon in a trench in eastern Ukraine? Sure they may kill a Russia, but frankly so can anyone, since “can” is an absurdly vague term that has no real standard. The better question to ask for a peace time army is “are they ready to kill an enemy, and survive the battle field right now” the answer to that question is no. They are not.

The Estonian force structure looks the way that it looks because Estonia quite simply subscribes to a Reserve-based defence model.

It trains people to a certain level and then has them on reserve service on a call-back basis. Every year it exercises various units by calling reservists back to the colours for an exercise. The efficiency of such a system varies depending on the equipment issued and the degree of training given them. Do they compare to our RegF folks who are paid 365 days a year and train for the equivalent of 3 or 4 months per year? Probably not but are they good enough to defend their country? Considering that they seem to be fairly well armed and getting better, I wouldn't count them out. Are they BMQ week 1 recruits? No. Every year they run 3,200-4,000 troops through 8-11 months of training/service and have more than enough reservists to call back to fill out those two brigades and more with trained people.

The fact that they use the RegF as instructors and equipment holders is not a weakness. They are not schools in so far as they are organized and equipped to be actual battalions and brigades once rounded out by reservists. They function as schools in peacetime and units in wartime. That is a perfectly logical way to form a force. Canada did it that way until the years between WW2 and Korea. Our schools are instructional only. They do not hold the equipment to allow mobilization. Theirs do.

To go a touch further, the Estonians have even formed a rudimentary divisional headquarters which unifies the operations of their two brigades when mobilized and their territorial defence forces. That too shows a balanced organizational core.

It's too easy to dismiss the fighting capability of a force simply because it is not swamped by full-timers waiting out their pensionable time many of whom are administrators and not leaders or trainers. The real question is are they using their people to their best advantage. If you think back, most of NATO's Cold War army was for most of its time a conscript one with many of its soldiers having less training and time in service then your average Militia soldier today. This is no different. While you can point to the Russians as a failure of the contract soldier/conscript reserve system, you can point to the Ukrainian one for its success. The difference is in how they are equipped, trained and led and not in the fact that many in the ranks are reservists.

 

[ueo]

What was the context of your experience of this effort on the FEBA and meeting engagements? How much experience did you have? On what are you basing this impression?

You don't think that planning for the interdiction of lines of communication was an effort during the Cold War? That was a major feature of Air Land Battle. The concept of the Deep Battle has been around for some time. The identification and neutralization of specific enemy capabilities is central to the targeting effort. We tend to see targeting as Hellfire or SOF strikes on compounds, but there are HPTs and HVTs in conventional warfare.

High Value Targets (HVTs) are things that, if destroyed/neutralized etc, will affect the enemy's ability to achieve his plan. High Payoff Targets (HPTs) are those HVTs that, if destroyed/neutralized, will help us achieve our plan. So targeting enemy ammunition stores can simply be a function of assessing the enemy to determine that they are HPTs and finding the means to effectively target them. Not to take anything away from the folks doing the business right now.

Hey 22B- Whats your exposure to these areas? Level/ etc?