C7 sights: Optical & Iron

[Fishbone Jones]

Mair,
I agree. I‘m not advocating removal of the Elcan from any weapon, it works, amongst the reasons being the ones you mentioned. People have to practice and get to know it. They are inherently against change when they have something they‘re comfortable with. I also agree not enough time is spent on what we used to call basic musketry skills. Shooting does not consist wholey of punching holes in paper. People think when they get a pass on the PWT that‘s the end and no other work is required. It‘s ongoing. After almost 40 yrs of military and competition shooting, from .22 cal to the 105 L7 tank gun, I still learn with every trip to the range. If you don‘t you may end up "spraying and praying" while someone has you pinned from over 500 meters!! A big part of the problem is we don‘t compete or teach any of the longer range stuff any more, and too many people are content to leave it to the other guy (the mortars, arty, fast air, etc) rather than depend on their own skills. You sound like someone who is willing to spend the time to help and convince the younger guys, much as I like to do. Keep it up, we‘re becoming a minority!

 

[JRMACDONALD]

I have followed this thread for four days, and I don‘t know whether to laugh or cry! Here goes:
Patriot- 1. Give it up! The C7 rifle has been here for 12 years. The C79 IS a good sight, it‘s just that everyone expects IT to make them marksman. They are going to be here for quite a while yet, learn how to use them!
2. How can anyone be expected to have peripheral vision, with" the disengaged eye closed"? I think you mean "tunnel vision" right?
This physical effect occurs with iron sights as well! This could be corrected , if we took the time/ammo to teach people how to shoot with both eyes open. I know it works for me, in certain circumstances.
3. Do a little research on that incident( ie the Summary investigations, newspaper reports and subsequent Court Martials) . It was a Pl/ Coy Live fire atk against a trench system. The lethal shot was, supposedly, fired from a C9 in the fire base( 200-300M away).( if we‘re talking about the same incident)

Everyone else- 1. It is obvious to me, that the comments made on Infantry Live fire Atks, Pre trg, and RSO duties during these atks, are based on supposition, and NOT a comprehensive understanding of, or experience doing these Tasks. If you wish to state an opinion , GREAT! ( Just know what you are talking about!)
2. Small Arms Fire- Theres " effective range"(where the average Joe/Josephine can, reasonably, be expected to hit the tgt) and Maximum effective range( where the projectle fired, by a competent shot, can still cause damage/ injury to the tgt) The 556mm
cartridge is lethal ,a lot farther then you think!)
ENDER- you hit the nail on the head! Marksmanship trg is the key!
Fortunecookie5084- The C7 does have the heavy barrel on it( take a look at a M16A1). The AK-47 fires 7.62x39( definitely Not equivalent to 762 NATO!)
Mair/ Recceguy- Your last two posts bring up, very basic,yet,excellent points. It
all boils down to mastery of basic skills, exposure to, and understanding of, the hazards of live fire training .

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Mac,
Thanks, I‘m getting to old to piss any higher up the wall.

 

[JRMACDONALD]

Recceguy- hint- 1. drink more beer! 2. keep peeing at the same spot!( the wall will eventually , collapse )

 

[fortuncookie5084]

JRMACDONALD, I refer you to http://www.dmi.usma.edu/Milresources/Weapons/m16a2rifle.htm
which indicates that the M16A1 had a weaker barrel. I refer you to the DND Army site: http://www.army.dnd.ca/equip/wpn/C7_E.HTML where they admit our rifle is based on the M16A1E1, and effective range is only 400M. Looks like Canada went cheap on the rifle...

 

[ender]

recceguy,

I was using the QL2 thing as an example. When I did my QL2 we were taught with the iron sight lesson plan and that‘s what they are using in my area today. I‘m a Private though, so I‘m not teaching anything, and getting the lesson plan changed isn‘t really by buisness. Also, my father, a MCpl, has been trying for the last two years to get the lesson plan changed to one that he wrote, and they won‘t let him.

My unit has a pretty good shooting team which I hope to join. Expect that I‘ve only fired the rifle once, on QL2 because I was tasked out and missed the unit firing ex, so I havn‘t exactly had any practise.

What‘s an SAT trainer?

 

[JRMACDONALD]

Good to see people are capable of doing research! ( if it ,only, occured before they post, this would be a great site!)
Fortunecookie5084-- good links. Now, what are the differences/improvements between M16A1 and A1E1? What rifle was the M16A2 based on? ( hint , something DIEMACCO had in production at the time!)
Ender-- amendments to the rifle pam, WRT C79 sight have been out for about4-5 years.(lesson plans, too! tell your dad to stop worrying)
all-- chk the DIN site for PUBS, or the SMALL ARMS Wing at INF SCH, CTC Gagetown. ( the info is there IF YOU LOOK FOR IT!)
THIS IS GETTING TO BE SOOOO MUCH FUN!

 

[fortuncookie5084]

I tried to find specs for the M16A1E1, but found only specs for the A1, A2, and comparisons of those. The C7 looks like the more modern M16 (better handguards, spent casing deflector), but they still advertise a shorter range than the M16A2 and the rifle has an AUTO fire selection like the A1. I‘ve asked a few people and they can only quote what they teach on the QL3 INF (none of the juicy new info I crave). Nobody seems to know the specifics. I‘m tempted to e-mail Diemaco...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Ender- The SAT stands for small arms trainer. It‘s a computer generated range. The weapons are from C7 up to and including Carl G. They are hooked to a pneumatics system that provides the recoil when fired. Sound system for realistic noise.The system operates by computer and will allow live scenarios, ie: battle simulation with enemy and vehicles as well as standard range practices. You can review your shooting and it will even show you a close up of the target with your sight pattern wavering around on it. In the enemy scenario, it will tell you know how many kills you got compared to the rest of the group. Lots of other stuff, all you have to do is program it in. It counts your rounds, when you run dry you have to change mags etc. We can even build in stoppages as you fire. We‘ve had ours for over a year. It is designed to be portable but we built a dedicated room for it. Not as good as open ranges, but allows for practicing the basics. Best, you don‘t need RSO‘s, FPO‘s, Med A‘s, ammo partys, butt party‘s etc, etc, etc. Just competent people on the computer. We let MCpl‘s run the practices

fortunecookie - don‘t think about it, do it!! The worst thing is, they‘ll ignore you the best thing maybe you‘ll get the answers your looking for. Email them and don‘t forget to ask them about the hundreds of improvements they made to the M16 when they got licenced to build the C7. Many of which have since been adopted by our brethren south of the border (chrome barrel linings, etc). It‘s not even the same weapon. Stop comparing them. Steel, tracks and green paint don‘t mean it‘s a tank.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

ender - just reread something in your answer that‘s disturbing. I‘ll quote you." I‘m a Private, so I‘m not teaching anything, and getting the lesson plan changed is‘nt really my business". That‘s a dangerous trap your falling into. It gets easier and easier to say it‘s not my job, let someone else fix it. Next thing you know........? You don‘t have to yell and bitch. Identify the problem, offer a solution(always, may not be the right one, but there‘s nothing worse than someone who complains without offering input). Get dad to show you how to do a lesson plan, have him and your unit standards guy vette it, and offer it to anyone that will listen. When your all done compare it to the one on the DIN and see how you made out. Cheers.

 

[the patriot]

JRMacdonald,

So that‘s what we need to do to have you post on the forum. Nice to see that you‘re still around! Agreed, marksmanship training is key to preventing accidents like this from occurring. That doesn‘t help the soldier who was killed due to the training accident now does it. And yes, there are people who know how to use the C79 Optical Sight. They‘ve used it so well that they‘ve killed buddy!!!!

-the patriot-

 

[the patriot]

By the by,

I‘ve come accross the official Diemaco website. They are the manufacturer of the C7 family of firearms and the C79 Optical Sight. I added it to the "Canadian Military Related" portion on User Submitted Links. Take a look at it and compare it against what we‘re already using.
www.diemaco.com

-the patriot-

 

[ender]

Recceguy,
I‘m not trying to get caught up in "it‘s not my problem". But how would I adress this problem from where I am? To I go up to my section commander and say ‘MCpl, you know the C7 lesson plan for QL2, I think it‘s messed up. Let me write up a new one, even though I have no idea how to write a lesson plan, and I‘m really not qualified to write one up for the c7 because I havn‘t shot that often. Oh, and by the way MCpl this is exactly the same lesson plan that‘s my Dad has been unsuccesfully trying to get approved for years". My Dad has already written a lesson plan. He‘s been trying to get it approved by Brigade for years now. The unit is fine with it, but Brigade runs a lot of the QL2‘s and they won‘t allow him to change it. They keep giving him some crap about national standards and the Navy still using Iron sights.

From where I am, I can‘t see any way to deal with this through my chain of command. The best way I would think would be to go through the musketry NCO, and the area rifle guy, who is my Dad. This is something I really don‘t have the qualifications or experience to deal with.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

ender - let‘s try this again.. I‘m not ragging on you, you seem like a person that cares for the military and your career. I‘m just trying to point you in the right direction. Your close in what you say. Yes, go to your MCpl and say you think it‘s screwed up, see if he agrees. If yes, ask him to help you find out how to change the problem, help you find the right people to talk to. That‘s his friggin job! If he doesn‘t want to help one of HIS junior soldiers with a military or civilian problem, he shouldn‘t be wearing his leaf. (more "it‘s not my problem syndrome"!) This goes for any problem, we were all Privates once, and what we learn early sticks with us and helps us later in life when approched by a subordinate for help. Go to the DIN and check PUBS, or check CTC Standards in Gagetown, the new one should be there. If it is, local standards can argue till they‘re blue, that‘s the one you use, period, end of story. There‘s to many people empire building and think the world revolves around them. Your entitled to satisfaction or a reasonable explanation.

 

[fortuncookie5084]

ender, if there is one place I complain more than here about everything to do with my Army, it is to the people at my Regiment---including those instructing and my section comd.

I had a beef with some of their marksmanship principles, too, and I mentioned that their trg was completely at odds with what had been taught to me by a qualified reg force Van Doos sniper from one of the recce platoons. It sucked when they pulled out the pam and "showed" me that I was wrong and that I must have not been paying attention that day. But heck, my PWT3 score is still sky-high using Sgt. 22‘s tips, so...

If you have input, always give it. One day you will be leading the troops and the idiots who laugh you off will be gone. Think of how good the unit will be then, eh?

 

[ender]

You guys are right. The reason I wouldn‘t want to approach my section commander on this one is that there is already someone from the unit trying to fix this. In my case, the right people to talk to would be my Dad who is the musketry NCO, and who is already on it. The unit seems to handle problems pretty well, but once you get up to Brigade they are pretty ridgidly inflexible. I‘ll tell my Dad about the new standards though, and hopefully he‘ll be able to get them to implement it.

 

[fortuncookie5084]

I have e-mailed Diemaco regarding the C7 barrel. When I get their reply I‘ll post my e-mail and their answers to my questions.

 

[Master Blaster]

I wish that I had picked up on this thread a few weeks ago and not today.

There is a simple reason why the M16 has an ‘extended range‘ over the C7 and it has not much to do with the rifle itself. The M16 fires a 52 grain projectile (avoirdupois measurement = 7000 grains to a pound of 16 ounces) at 3200 feet per second while the C7 fires a 62 grain projectile at 2950 feet per second. The M16 has a rifle twist of 1:7 (that is one turn of the projectile on it‘s axis for every 7 inches of forward movement) while the C7 has a 1:9 rate of twist. The heavier projectile has more inertia at a shorter range than the light projectile has a longer range and for that reason the M16 is rated at a greater range than than the C7. THe C77 ball ammunition used by the CF is a metal cored projectile and is more than capable of penetrating hardened targets at greater distances than the projectile fire from the M16. I‘m not going to go into a dissertation regarding the flight of projectiles during the 4 phases of ballistics but I will tell you that the C7 is a superior weapon to anything ever turned out by Colt or Armalite.

Regarding the use (or usefulness) of the C79 scope...It makes poor shooters average, average shooters marginal and great shooters piss poor. Not logical but I‘ve seen it with my own eyes at every serious competition. The minute of angle graduations are too gross (1 click = 1 inch at 100 yards) and are fine for a battle sight but not for a precision shooter. Not a precision rifle you say? If the target goes down and stays there and it‘s the target you pointed at just before it made the loud noise, then it IS a precision piece of equipment without doubt or reason.

I would prefer my battle rifle to have a sighting system that works in all environments (doesn‘t fog up with moisture, snow or other climatic anomalies) and it precise enough that if I want to display my concealed position at 500 yds I can do so knowing that at least one person (with the potential for more) no longer cares where, why, what, when or how I am.

All the Best

Dileas Gu Brath

 

[John Nayduk]

ender:

You or your Dad should e-mail the Army Lessons Learned Centre about the lesson plan. I was talking to a major from the Centre while down in Fort Benning in March. They really seem to want to help and are always interested in hearing your concerns.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Got the range practice schedule for my team this weekend for the ORA military match in Borden this month. Geez... guess what, there‘s two 500 yard matchs, hmmm... how ‘bout that.