Cadets on a Reg force exercise??

[Nobby]

Being a CIC officer, I am well aware of the PRCI (in Pacific  region anyway) that prohibits any military "tactical" training. This PRCI specifically names "Capture the flag" as well. So imagine my surprise when the local news runs a story about Navy cadets getting run through cycles serving on HMCS Algonquin during the RIMPAC exercise. Not only that, but the cadets are not part of the Navy reserve but are doing bridge functions during simulated missile attacks in Hawaii. I may be opening up a box of something here, but does this not seem hypocrytical?? I haven't made up my mind, but your thoughts??

 

[FredDaHead]

Source?

Sounds unlikely...

 

[Franko]

I'm sure that everything is on the level here Nobby.   

But not having a source posted...I'll have to take it that this is nothing more than rumour....so here it goes.

The amount of staffing to get clearance for cadets to go on an ex with the Regs isn't something that is just signed off without some detail involved.

I have been working with cadets for over 18 years and have had many cadets come out on ex with my unit...albeit, not as involved as they would like it to be.

The staffing, clearances, paperwork is huge. When the cadets get out to the unit, the troops are briefed as to what they can and can't do with them and it goes from there.

I'm pretty sure that the ship the kids were on were not involved directly in any hazzardous portions of the manoevers.

It's really nothing more than a brief exposure to what their affilliated unit does.

My $0.02 worth.

Regards

 

[Neill McKay]

Being a CIC officer, I am well aware of the PRCI (in Pacific  region anyway) that prohibits any military "tactical" training. This PRCI specifically names "Capture the flag" as well. So imagine my surprise when the local news runs a story about Navy cadets getting run through cycles serving on HMCS Algonquin during the RIMPAC exercise. Not only that, but the cadets are not part of the Navy reserve but are doing bridge functions during simulated missile attacks in Hawaii. I may be opening up a box of something here, but does this not seem hypocrytical?? I haven't made up my mind, but your thoughts??

I suppose there's a difference between a cadet simulating an attack as an infanteer and a cadet serving in a ship, whatever the ship is doing.  I've known cadets to be deployed in ships and perfom watch-on-deck duties such as lookouts, etc.  There's nothing too "tactical" about that, in itself -- it's just normal ship operation, similar to what any other ship would do (someone always has to steer, and someone always has to watch where you're going, warship or cruise ship.)

But apart from that, unless the deployment is being conducted under the authority of RCSU (Pacific), PRCIs are irrelevant to it.

 

[rwgill]

It is the infantry's role that the general public has difficulty with.  It the "up, close and personal" killing, or illusion of killing.  Cadets have assisted in the firing of artillery pieces yesterday, today and tomorrow.  Cadets have assisted in bridge building and water purification.  Cadets have gone for "dog & pony" shows in the LAVs and AVGP line of vehicles.  The most difficult part and the banned part is the tactical, or warlike scenarios.

Having been on several exercises with the PRes and Cadets together I can assure you that there is a happy medium.  Previously affiliated with a Field Engineer Squadron, cadets were permitted to almost completely participate.  While laying a mine field, cadets participated in the recee, the mapping of the field and fencing the field.  The only problem the Det had was the actual laying of the mines (juice cans).  The cadets loved the recee and mapping portions as it improved their map and compass skills.  Throughout the FTXs, the cadets would rotate in HQ to get practical experience with the radios (under supervision).  They also learnt the importance of team work and good leadership.  They realized that everyone gets their hands dirty, not just the followers. 

These exercises were also great training sessions for the CIC officers.  They were able to shadow the PRes Trp Comds and see how it is really done.  They are great training for everyone involved.  They are also great recruiting tools.  What cadets see in the movies and what they experience are two different things.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Being a CIC officer, I am well aware of the PRCI (in Pacific  region anyway) that prohibits any military "tactical" training. This PRCI specifically names "Capture the flag" as well. So imagine my surprise when the local news runs a story about Navy cadets getting run through cycles serving on HMCS Algonquin during the RIMPAC exercise. Not only that, but the cadets are not part of the Navy reserve but are doing bridge functions during simulated missile attacks in Hawaii. I may be opening up a box of something here, but does this not seem hypocrytical?? I haven't made up my mind, but your thoughts??

Just a thought - could it not be possible that these are Naval Cadets (RMC OCdts) conducting their summer training with the Navy, vice Navy Cadets?  The functions they're quoted as performing would suggest that they are...

 

[1feral1]

Back when I was posted to the RAA, we often had affiliated cadet corps out with us on the gunline, but as time progressed and the PC world came into effect, cadets had to be 100 metres back when our guns fired.

I see nothing wrong with cadets placed into sections but they should be more senior and of an age and build where they can share the labour etc.

After all, we feed from the cadets and the reserves as much as Canada does.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Just a thought - could it not be possible that these are Naval Cadets (RMC OCdts) conducting their summer training with the Navy, vice Navy Cadets?  The functions they're quoted as performing would suggest that they are...

I'd say this is a likely answer.

Used to be lucky Army Cadets went to West Germany to act as infantrymen with 4 CMBG during summer exercises...and would have been on hand had the balloon gone up...times have certainly changed.

 

[Black Watch]

Well as a cadet, I went on few FTX with the regiment. Of course, those were the days (1999-2002). I fired C6, C7, C9, and lerned the drills on C-G.

 

[muskrat89]

Used to be lucky Army Cadets went to West Germany to act as infantrymen with 4 CMBG during summer exercises...and would have been on hand had the balloon gone up...times have certainly changed.

My brother did this - was attached to PPCLI as a cadet

 

[Springroll]

Both Nobby and I were in PPCLI cadets together..... ;D

 

[Nobby]

Just to clarify, these were Navy cadets and NOT memnbers of the CF. They ran a few part story on a local tv station. One of the parts happened to talk to these lucky young people. The station is called "A-channel" in Victoria, BC. I can't post proof because the station only arhives for a couple days. Also PRCI's apply to ALL cadet activities whether the regs are in charge or not. Tough luck......I'll guess you'll just have to use that thing called trust.

 

[Franko]

Tough luck......I'll guess you'll just have to use that thing called trust.

And also you'll have to trust that the CO of said Sea Cadet Corps staffed the paperwork properly and that the ACO gave the green light.

If not she / he's in a bit of poo right now, or soon will be.

Regards

 

[Springroll]

I think what he was getting at is that cadets nowadays, as an example, are no longer allowed to play capture the flag due to whatever reasons pac region has given, but they will allow sea cadets to go along on RIMPAC with the navy.

That does seem quite hypocritical, doesn't it?

 

[Michael OLeary]

That does seem quite hypocritical, doesn't it?

No.  There is a large difference in the perception among parents, other citizens, and those who might watch the cadet program with respect to identifying possible breaches of agreements on child soldiers between learning seamanship and learning "infantry combat/small unit tactics."

 

[Springroll]

I have played capture the flag in school, not only on cadet weekend ex's, so not sure how that stands up to it.
Even my kids play that at school now.

As far as I am concerned, the game helps the children to build teamwork and problem solving strategies. I don't recall being taught infantry/combat tactics while playing capture the flag.

We were put into teams of two and were to make it up the hill as quietly as possible and capture the flag. If you were caught, you were sent back to the bottom of the hill to try again. How is that teaching infantry/combat tactics?

 

[Michael OLeary]

I have played capture the flag in school, not only on cadet weekend ex's, so not sure how that stands up to it.
Even my kids play that at school now.

As far as I am concerned, the game helps the children to build teamwork and problem solving strategies. I don't recall being taught infantry/combat tactics while playing capture the flag.

We were put into teams of two and were to make it up the hill as quietly as possible and capture the flag. If you were caught, you were sent back to the bottom of the hill to try again. How is that teaching infantry/combat tactics?

Springroll,

I rather doubt anyone confused your SCHOOL for a government sponsored para-military (or military imitating) organization either.  And I suppose you could guarantee that no reporter would ever come up with a picture of Cadets "playing" Capture the Flag without wearing camouflage combats, cam paint, and imitating section tactics?

Under what definition do you not consider "stalking" an infantry activity?

Suck back, reload and open your mind to the broader potential interpretations of what gets done by the Cadet movement. All you are doing is muddying the waters and promoting the confusion among Cadets who need it explained again and again why their program does not now do some of the things it once did..

Why don't you put your powers of deduction to proposing what sports and activities the cadets could be doing instead of those that can be interpreted as contravening internationally agreed conventions.  Perhaps you could find things that would meet the objectives of the program without being "warlike" if you actually worked at it.

 

[Franko]

Topic re-opened for buisness.

Please keep it on track troops.

Regards

 

[Nobby]

Many of you have seemingly missed the point. PRCI 309 para 13 states that no activities that "Simulate war-like situations or tactics" are to be undertaken. I see no difference between a cadet performing bridge duties during simulated missile strikes and a cadet performing a RECCE patrol. At first glance one may be in green and face paint and the like.....while another is learning a very sterile action of war, but still an action of war none the less (a very destructive one too). As for capture the flag.....stalking involves following people not flags. The fact is that even though the rule (PRCI) is ridiculous, I expect a cadet region to damn well abide by the rules that they themselves create. As for that child soldier hoo hah.....tell me what exactly is the difference between a 16 year old cadet Sgt. and a 16 year old Infantry Reserve? Perhaps that deserves another discussion completely. Or maybe its safer to just press a button from afar..........fire and forget? Pacific Region's PC adherence to their rules seems to favour that sort of thing.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Many of you have seemingly missed the point. PRCI 309 para 13 states that no activities that "Simulate war-like situations or tactics" are to be undertaken. I see no difference between a cadet performing bridge duties during simulated missile strikes and a cadet performing a RECCE patrol. At first glance one may be in green and face paint and the like.....while another is learning a very sterile action of war, but still an action of war none the less (a very destructive one too). As for capture the flag.....stalking involves following people not flags. The fact is that even though the rule (PRCI) is ridiculous, I expect a cadet region to damn well abide by the rules that they themselves create. As for that child soldier hoo hah.....tell me what exactly is the difference between a 16 year old cadet Sgt. and a 16 year old Infantry Reserve? Perhaps that deserves another discussion completely. Or maybe its safer to just press a button from afar..........fire and forget? Pacific Region's PC adherence to their rules seems to favour that sort of thing.

Perhaps the discussion that it needs is within YOUR chain of command.  Not here, which only serves to confuse the issue of requirement to follow published orders and regulations.

As a CIC officer, if you have such a deep concern for this issue, then you are trying to discuss it in the wrong arena.