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Cadets that take things too far?

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I will say here that I have personally witnessed some CIC and CI's that have less maturity than some of the Cadets they are supposed to be "leading" Agree, disagree, I have seen it for myself.

Mandal, I don't think that kincanucks meant any harm by his statements, he is right, Cadets are kids when you look at it. Maybe "young adults" would be better. It's just wording.

Kincanucks, No one can be taught to be mature. Cadets, Reg Force, Reserve, Civvies - everyone has the capability of acting like a jerk.




 
kincanucks said:
I'm sorry sir, but what do you mean by this? Are you saying that being a cadet means that you are automatically a "kid"? As cadets we are taught to be mature and professional at all times.

Yes that is exactly what I am saying.   You can't be taught to be mature.   Professional? And that happens all the time doesn't it?
Where are the CICs and CLs while kids are running around the woods at night?

It may not be possible to be taught to be mature, however being in charge of a group of younger cadets tends to force you to mature fairly quickly. We are for the most part, very mature, esespecially compared to many(not all) other teens. We are also taught to be professional. How to become better leaders. How to make sure cadets don't kill themselves with there own stupidity. One of the best ways to do this is to take care of your subordinates. That didn't happen to the extent it should have here but it did in the end. In my mind that shows that the cadets in question were professional, as well as mature enough to notice what was happening to those in their charge and to take apappropriate action.

Where the CIC's were I'm not sure, and what would CL's reffer to? ???
 
My suggestion, Ensure your "Troops" are properly kitted out.  If they say something like, "I'll be ok, I'm hard...", cut them off.  Make them think about what could happen.  From that point on, constantly check on them.  Recheck on them, and check again.  We have a saying "Never trust F*ckee, as F*ckee will alway F*ck you" (Not intended to offend any person reading this, and if it did I truly appoligise).  What it means is, if you trust a unsupervised person,at the lowest level, to do something or think on their own, they won't.  And it will come back to bite you in the posteriour. Mind you not every one in the world is like this, but a lot of people do not know that there is fine line between hard-core and stupidity (Cadet, Reserve and Reg force a like).
 
What can you do to encourage more sensible â Å“hardcoreâ ? behaviour?  You can speak with a member and try to use the dark and forgotten art of logic and reason.  I find though it is easier and longer lasting buy setting the example and providing examples.  All soldiers before going on an operation go through some form of inspection.  This may entail a simple checklist to a kit layout.  You yourself as the example must have everything and achieve the standard.  As for providing examples, tell then that the fit and motivated soldiers strive to go on to greater challenges (ie pathfinder or ranger course).  And these dedicated soldiers passed their course.  Why?  Because they wore their hats and mitts!
 
rifle_team_captain_13 said:
Definately, we have a few JNCO's that go around calling drill and cadence in a "special" voice just so they can sound like the FMJ guy or something. There's also always seniors that think they're cool when they swear alot. Not only is that a very bad example, it makes them sound like some uncultured, uneducated, Neanderthal. Those guys also seem to pick on the young cadets, particularly the ones with a few shortcomings. Its ok to motivate them a little, but what they do is just perfect examples of why CHAP was implimented.

hey li  i think i know who you are talking about. could it be the same person that goes around wearing all the cadpat gear and never listens to the rules. i know the individual has a hard time acting like a proper role modle. i havnt seem to many problems with the JNCO's in the corp. but than i am always at charie sqd and not bravo sqd. this weekend we just had was pretty good i dont think a single cadet went with out wanting the proper warm gear. but than what do you expect when  you are in  - 35 degree weather.
 
"Hardcore"  means soldiering on and doing the best with what you have.  It does NOT mean  running around in the bush after intentionally leaving your gear behind.  The winters in Canada can and will kill you if you're not careful...

CHIMO,  Kat
 
We had a guy working for us that refused to wear his fireproof balaclava, thought that it made him look less manly or something. So, we're fighting fire and we get a bit that rolls back over on us, guess who gets burned and has to go on compensation? Yep, idiot boy who couldn't be arsed enough to understand the need for all off the PPE. You'd think a guy would learn after getting zapped like that but no...I found this idiot a week or so later bragging about how he was so tough because he had been burned...some people never learn.

Personally, I do not care how "girly" I look wearing all of my protective clothing. I have been burned and, let me tell you, it sucks.

 
scott1nsh said:
We had a guy working for us that refused to wear his fireproof balaclava, thought that it made him look less manly or something. So, we're fighting fire and we get a bit that rolls back over on us, guess who gets burned and has to go on compensation? Yep, idiot boy who couldn't be arsed enough to understand the need for all off the PPE. You'd think a guy would learn after getting zapped like that but no...I found this idiot a week or so later bragging about how he was so tough because he had been burned...some people never learn.

Personally, I do not care how "girly" I look wearing all of my protective clothing. I have been burned and, let me tell you, it sucks.

Aw, the fine line between hard core and stupidity has again been stumbled over.
 
I'm sorry sir, but what do you mean by this? Are you saying that being a cadet means that you are automatically a "kid"? As cadets we are taught to be mature and professional at all times.

As I have been a CI for some time, I am about to become a CIC Officer. And from what I know about being a minor, under the age of 18, and being on Cadet exercises, it is the responsibility of every officer to ensure that the cadets, that he is responsible for, are safe, and stay safe while on training exercises. If you are under the age of 18, yes, even if you are WO1 so and so, I am still responsible for your welfare and safety. If I was not, your mother or father or legal guardian would not allow you to be under our care. Cadets are given as much flexability to do as they see fit under the guidelines set out by the CF, and by the Cadet League of Canada. You are taught discipline, deportment, and leadership, you will become mature through your own life experience, we cannot teach that too you. But, you are in every sense of the word, a kid....or as I put it, a cadet. Your officers are ultimately responsible for your wellbeing while on exercises.

As for cadets trying to be hard, Rambo types that wanna rough it? They are going to do it whether we like it or not. The secret is, as the cadet involved in the Hypothermia incident, detect the problem, get a solution, fix the problem,then sit the cadet down and discuss the implications and the seriousness of what they did wrong. Make them write out the pros and cons, I will bet that it will be something they remember for a long time, and next time, they maybe helping someone else out that is in a similar situation.

The first and third item in the Cadet Motto?      To Learn and To Advance. I tried to have Make mistakes first, but i was out voted. ;D
 
Stirling N6123 said:
The first and third item in the Cadet Motto?       To Learn and To Advance. I tried to have Make mistakes first, but i was out voted. ;D
That is part of the motto for Air Cadets.  The motto of Army Cadets is Acer Acerpori (As the maple, so the sapling), and the motto of Sea Cadets is "Ready Aye Ready."
 
Stirling N6123 said:
The first and third item in the Cadet Motto? To Learn and To Advance. I tried to have Make mistakes first, but i was out voted. ;D
Zedic_1913 said:
That is part of the motto for Air Cadets. The motto of Army Cadets is Acer Acerpori (As the maple, so the sapling), and the motto of Sea Cadets is "Ready Aye Ready."
Stirling N6123 said:
Yes thank-you. I was aware of that.

Clearly not...if you were aware of it you wouldnt have said it.  Please read the forum rules of conduct.  Just because you are an officer doesnt mean that you are exempt from anything.  Mr. Zedic was kind enough to correct you and you tell him you were aware of it?  Everyone makes mistakes including officers.  Just take your lumps and soldier on.  There is no need to save face here, everyone is respected until they prove to be total retards, and saying "I was aware of that" makes the thank you come off awfully sarcastic to me.

Please read the rules of the cadet forum and any questions please send a PM to myself or scott1nsh.

Thanks,
Burrows,
Cadet forum Moderator.
 
Stirling N6123 said:
As for cadets trying to be hard, Rambo types that wanna rough it? They are going to do it whether we like it or not. The secret is, as the cadet involved in the Hypothermia incident, detect the problem, get a solution, fix the problem,then sit the cadet down and discuss the implications and the seriousness of what they did wrong. Make them write out the pros and cons, I will bet that it will be something they remember for a long time, and next time, they maybe helping someone else out that is in a similar situation.

I disagree. They may want to do it but if you are properly watching over them then they should not have the opportunity. Provide a kit list to them, if they arrive for a weekend out and haven't packed accordingly then send them home, seems simple to me. If they're giving the tough talk then make sure you take them aside and explain that sort of talk is not on, then explain to the group how that attitude can get a person killed, make it a learning experience, how "hardcore" is just stupid and not a way to act.

Here's a thought, do you think that maybe some of the CI's and CIC take it a bit to far with their Rambo-ish attitudes and that the Cadets, who may look up to them, are just following their lead? Methinks that this scenario is entirely possible.

If you want a good example of how hardcore can mess you up, read my blurb on the previous page.
 
scott1nsh said:
I disagree. They may want to do it but if you are properly watching over them then they should not have the opportunity. Provide a kit list to them, if they arrive for a weekend out and haven't packed accordingly then send them home, seems simple to me. If they're giving the tough talk then make sure you take them aside and explain that sort of talk is not on, then explain to the group how that attitude can get a person killed, make it a learning experience, how "hardcore" is just stupid and not a way to act.

Here's a thought, do you think that maybe some of the CI's and CIC take it a bit to far with their Rambo-ish attitudes and that the Cadets, who may look up to them, are just following their lead? Methinks that this scenario is entirely possible.

If you want a good example of how hardcore can mess you up, read my blurb on the previous page.

I very agree (can u say that ??? o well) I've seen some air CIC officers who think they are some kind of one man Spec Ops team  ::) what  a waste of kit.
 
First off, I am not an officer. I am a CI. Second,  I was not being sarcastic, I was merely saying thank-you for the correction, and that I was aware of the three distinct motto's for the Air, Sea and Army cadets. Should I have edited my post? Maybe. Did I miss putting the "Air" in there, yes. But if you Corporal Burrows have interpreted that 7 word post as sarcasm, then you, as is every one else, entitled that opinion.

I will not speak for all CIC's or CI's on this forum, or the approx. 6000 CIC officers nation wide. It is my hope that most of them carry themselves in a manner that is reflective of the Cadet League, Reflective of the Canadian Forces standards and reflective of their own morals and character. If there are stories out there of CIC officers doing silly things, shame on them. Lead by example.

Having said that, I am not going to debate with any of you as to wheather cadetsshould  be given proper kit list, or if they are properly advised, or if they are properly trained, If "I" am properly watching them etc. etc. The bottom line that of you need to realize, is that when you are in the bush, your parents have given people like me, the legal responsibility to ensure your safety. If I do not ensure that you are kept safe, I am responsible, I may even go to jail if I fail to provide that level of safety.

The following is an excerpt from my units standing orders. And, I have also been told, as all CIC officers are members of the Canadian Forces, there are QR&O's that officers are bound by when it comes to dealing with minors in the cadet movement.

In short:

GENERAL 1.
Safety is everyone's responsibility and must be the primary consideration when planning and conducting all cadet training activities. Commanding Officers must ensure that the staff and cadets under their command duly follow all safety guidelines and regulations. Certain activities, such as sailing, cacanoingfamiliarization flying and abseiling, have their own set of safety guidelines which can be found in the respective CATOs or other safety publications. This PRCI will cover the safety guidelines as they pertain to general cadet training activities.

GENERAL SAFETY 2.
Supervision. Cadet supervision levels are dependant upon the type of activity being conducted. The cadet corps/squadron CO must consider the type of activity and ensure that adequate supervision is provided. The following minimum supervision levels shall be provided:

a. for activities conducted during the day where safety risks are minimal and overnight accommodation is not required, the minimum adult supervisor ratio of one CIC officer/civilian instructor for every 20 cadets shall be maintained;

b. for overnight activities other than field training exercises, a minimum adult supervisor ratio of one CIC officer/civilian instructor for every 15 cadets shall be maintained and appropriate gender representation for cadets in attendance shall be provided (ie. if female cadets are in attendance, female CIC officer(s)/civilian instructor(s) will be present);

c. during field training exercises, the minimum adult supervisor ratio of one CIC officer/civilian instructor for every 10 cadets shall be maintained and appropriate gender representation for cadets in attendance shall be provided; and d. when specialized activities (ie. range practices, abseiling, gliding, sailing) are being conducted, additional supervision will be provided as required and current qualified specialty instructors must be present throughout.

FIELD TRAINING EXERCISES 11. When planning any cadet training activity involving the outdoors the following areas shall be taken into consideration:

a. Leaders/Instructors. Adequate supervision for the activity being conducted must be provided in accordance with current regulations. Leaders/instructors must be qualified and properly screened prior to having contact with cadets;

b. Group Characteristics. The number, age, medical limitations (ie. allergies) physical fitness and experience levels of cadets must be considered as they apply to the activities in which cadets are expected to participate;

c. Area Characteristics. Before entering an area to be used for cadet training, instructors must assess the type of terrain, remoteness, water conditions, in and out routes and any potential hazards such as poisonous plants, wildlife or dangerous terrain;

d. Climatic Conditions. A weather forecast should be obtained prior to venturing into the outdoors such that the group is equipped with adequate gear and clothing to survive any unexpected shift in the weather and to move in inclement weather to a safe area;

e. Clothing and Equipment. All cadets must be properly notified of what personal items of clothing and equipment they are to bring. Any equipment supplied to them should be in good condition and of adequate quantity. A check of personal equipment should be done to ensure cadets have brought all necessary items prior to departing on an exercise (see PRCI 121);

f. Communication Plan. A communication plan is necessary to ensure reliable communication within the groups and with outside emergency agencies. The reliability of cellular service varies, therefore, should not be depended on as a sole means of communication;

And I thank-you Corporal Burrows for directing me to the forum rules. I was aware of those as I have read them. Should I require any further clclarificationf them, I will send you a PM.
 
Stirling N6123 said:
The bottom line that of you need to realize, is that when you are in the bush, your parents have given people like me, the legal responsibility to ensure your safety. If I do not ensure that you are kept safe, I am responsible, I may even go to jail if I fail to provide that level of safety.

And that is the bottom line. Good post.

And this is why we need to ensure that the people, like yourself, entrusted with children's safety, are properly trained to do such. I meant no harm in my words towards the many CI's and CIC who do their damndest to ensure that their charges are kept safe. I was merely stating that there are exceptions, just like my former coworker, in every walk of life. When it comes to caring for youth we must ensure that these "exceptions" are kept as far away as possible.

Good on you for the post, some would have ended up going down in flames, so to speak. Apologies if I misread your previous.

Welcome to Army.ca!
 
Unfortunately, there will always be exceptions.

I have recently read with dismay that a Boy Scout leader has been arrested and charged in the Toronto Area for being in possesion, or at least trying to obtain material of a pornographic nature relating to young children. This individual has been working with youth for many years. And it boggles the mind as to how these people can infect these types of organizations with all the safeguards in place.

I will speak for myself, I was once a cadet with 151 Squadron in Oshawa for 4 years, from 1986 to 1990, made it to Flight Sergeant. My Commanding Officer was Major Bert Weigel, and as a youth of 16years, I looked to that guy with admiration. He would lead by example and to this day, I remember going to Ganaraska forest for a 4 day camp out. On the last day, we did an obstacle coarse that ended with a rope jump across a pond. The rope would sway far away from a small dock, level with the water on the far end, so we needed an Officer there to catch the cadets as they swung way out on the rope and came back across the far side, past the dock. Who was there but Major Weigle, in the pouring rain, full combats, 4 days of cammo paint ground into his face, and a colt cigar, burning away, protected by his bush hat, catching the cadets as they swung across before jumping on the bus home.

I still think he is involved with he squadron although not a commanding officer. But there are allot of fine, outstanding citizens that have very mundane jobs, family's and ordinary lives that want to be involved in providing youth in this country with a foundation of duty, honour and above all respect for others, that will help them for the rest of their lives.
 
Me and a couple buddy's from my corps try and go "hardcore" but were not stupid about it...we keep ourselves safe doing it. We're talking about have perfect cam...stuff like that.
 
Lol yea your right warrior but I also saw it on the news.
 
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