Cadets vs Boy Scouts (role, "child soldiers", etc.)

[AmmoTech90]

Exactly!!!!!  Not only are cadets civilians, but even CIC (although they are members of the CF) CAN'T be deployed.  They can also NOT transfer to a PRes unit or the Reg F.  They do not have to meet the same standard that all other members of the CF do.  Basically, they are just barely members of the CF. 

Actually according to QR&O 10.06 there is nothing that would prevent a member of the CIC from transferring between sub-components of the reserve unless the CIC officer is also a member of the RCMP.  In fact, if the transfer did not increase the obligations of the member (not likely) it could be done without the members consent.  I would think the RCMP clause is there to allow them to participate in youth programmes in isolated communities while not affecting their ability to carry out their policing duties.

As far as cadets being military I agree they are not.  I was in a British boy scout patrol in Greece and we did more drill and field craft than some reg force pers.  Still didn't make us military.  Might have been we just had warlike leaders.  I remember the first night we had parade after the Falklands were invaded we showed up and there were piles of lumber and rope at one end of the parking lot and a maniquins at the other.  We had to build catapults and launch spikey objects at the "Argies".  Somehow I don't think that would fly in this day and age.  On a sadder note we got to tour HMS Sheffield when she came into port, just after that she headed to the South Atlantic where she was lost      Excellent crew who were more than happy to answer our questions and demonstrate their kit.  Even after that we were still just Boy Scouts.

 

[childs56]

umm the argument of a 16 year old not in the military is crap lots of them in reserve units across the country. one thing i remember was that when a cadet went away as staff they had to be 16 years of age and were subject to the CSD but to a lesser degree then a reg force or reserve member. they in turn were given a short term contract as a reserve memeber. pay was terrible if i remember right,  as for sending them downtown to be charged yes they did for convictions that could be tried by civiey court, the same as the reg or reserve force, their have been alot of changes throu out the last few years and i really dont know any upto date details about this. no a cadet is not a memeber of the cf but when they sign a contract as a staff cadet they are sujuct to certain rights and responsibilties that are not normally asscoitied with regular civilian life. i always thought that cadets generally handled all their small discplineary problems in a military fasion. ie military police and such, my two cents worth and good subject for maybe the higher ups that have auctual written documents to refer to and maybe put a copy on here for future reference have a good days gus.

 

[Ranger]

Hey,
I don't know but I don't think cadets is too soft. I think if it was too hard on us the numbers would drop drastically.
There's nothing wrong with having kids who want to serve their country.

 

[Infanteer]

Well, you guys really insist on bringing this up again, but if hanging your peepees out makes you snake-eaters feel happy....

 

[Limpy]

Oh I agree. But it will never happen. If you read the book STAND BY YOUR BEDS you  will notice that the Army Cadets at the Vernon Summer Training Camp in 1953 were all trained as if they were actual Reg Force. In fact they had Reg Force Sgt.'s and Cpl's as instructors as well as Militia too. Cadets would do push ups and be called "pongo soldiers" for there f*** ups and so on. Try disciplining Cadets like that today you'd be CHAP'ed demoted or even sent packing. The watering down of Cadets began I believe when girls were introduced into the cadet system. Don't get me wrong, I believe that girls should be allowed in Cadets it's just that people seem to have this stigma that women or girls have to have things slightly easier. Well that may be true in fitness standards (be that your own opinion) I however don't believe that in discipline matters. That doesn't however mean I condon sexual remarks or say making light of ones weight problem to teach him or her a lesson. The other thing I believe that can be attributed to the watering down of Cadets was the U.N. Back in the 80's and 90's the U.N. really started to frown upon child soldiers (ex. Sierra Leone). As you probably know Cadets in the 50' and 60's had weapons training on service weapons that the Regular Army was using ( my dad remembers as an ex army Cadet shooting the C1's at Volkes range in Chilliwack). But when the U.N. made noise about goings on in Africa, Canada decided to stop letting Cadets receive training on military tactics and weapons and instead wants them to focus on matters like "citizenship". The Canadian public was no help either for producing comments like "Cadets are training the killers of tomorrow". Then because of a few bad apples the Cadet programme got the CHAP programme, which was to me is the final nail in the coffin for Cadets and discipline. So to sum things up political correctness seems to be winning out in this country thus far so don't expect to be on a recon ex with full kit with C7 and C9's  anytime soon.

 

[sgt_mandal]

Well, you guys really insist on bringing this up again, but if hanging your peepees out makes you snake-eaters feel happy....

If these topics do not apeal to you, why do you keep reading them?

 

[condor888000]

I don't know about army or sea cadets but I do know that air cadets do do things that are related to the air element of the CF.
Sgt_Fitzpatrick,
You say you've been in cadets for 2 years. Why are you complaining? In the past two years, cadets has not gotten any softer. At least officially. I know that certain things have been removed, for good reason. For example, at Baggotville, Aircrew/SI's aren't allowed to eat what they kill any more since a few cadets became sick after doing so. Does that strike you as being too soft?

Limpy,
CHAP did remove many of the techniques that were used to disipline cadets. It didn't get rid of all of them though. If you call a twelve year old a pongo solider because they made a mistake, it wouldn't leave a good impression. Do you think that if a cadet came home and said "Mommy, the intructers insulted me, yelled at me and made me fell like shat" they'd be allowed back?

The bottom line is, the world has changed since cadets was introduced, and so cadets had to change to remain a going concern. I think they've done it fairly well. The one thing I would do is change the teaching of CHAP. I had one cadet threaten to CHAP me because he failed a test in one of my courses. That is too far.

Can we please stop bringing this up? It's getting rather repative.

 

[chalk1]

...sigh.

Im gone for ONE weekend and you guys ruffle Infanteers feathers.

All this has already been discussed in a thread debating whether combat training should be involved in the cadet program(this is not -I say again- NOT an invitation to renew that particular conversation). How soft or hard cadets is on an individual level depends on your own staff at local and up to Area level.

As for the difficulty of the program, don't claim/complain that it's 'too soft" until you've actually had experience with it. In the past 2 years, I've travelled to the UK, trained with the paras, the Royal Marines Commandos, the Royal Engineers etc, in some basic infantry skills, Urban warfare training, attended the Frimley park leadership course, visited Vimy Ridge, Beaumont-Hamel, Jumped out of an aircraft 5 times, and climbed 4 mountains, just to name a few. Not that Im blowing my own horn, but before complaining about the program, try looking into what there is available to challenge you, then train and prepare for it. After you have done this, THEN come in here and give intelligent critiques of the program.

 

[Limpy]

Well, I think sgt-mandal has a point. If this is a subject that people want to keep bringing up let them. If you don't like it, forget it. However there are new people joining this site everyday that may have something to say on the issue. So let them. It's called freedom of speech. Now condor888000 I may have came over a little biased on the CHAP thing. CHAP has done some good in preventing sexual harassment and so forth. I also know it ruined my old Air Cadet Sqd. It's not easy dealing with Corporals that didn't mind telling me to "shove it" and all you can do is refer them to the Warrent and then a little speech by an officer and there just back in flight doing what they did previously.

Oh by the way, I warned the Cpl. about three times before refering him to the Warrent.

 

[rdschultz]

Why do people on internet forums always insist on pulling out the freedom of speech card?  This forum offers no freedom of speech other than that which Mike Bobbit allows.  He does a very good job of allowing it, but if he and the moderators under his ultimate command don't want you to say something, they can tell you not to say it.  EDIT:  I'm not trying to say that Infanteer was speaking as a moderator in any fashion, just so we're clear. My point is just that there is no freedom of speech here. 

Also, that works both ways.  If you want the 'right' to beat your drum a billion times, don't complain when Infanteer plays some backup music.

 

[Infanteer]

If these topics do not apeal to you, why do you keep reading them?

As a moderator I must keep an eye on all threads to ensure the board is up to fighting form.

My statement comes from the fact that I see a new thread on this exact same subject every second month.

 

[Limpy]

Okay hoser you do have a point. But I'm sure if Infanteer had a real big problem with this topic he would have already shut it down. If he does or any other moderator does, I'll repsect the chain of command and not feel any gripes towards them.

 

[chalk1]

. If this is a subject that people want to keep bringing up let them. If you don't like it, forget it. However there are new people joining this site everyday that may have something to say on the issue. So let them. It's called freedom of speech.

Firstly, we are all of us guests or invitees of Mr Bobbit. He offers us this great forum at the expense of his and others' resources and time. Wasting these by restarting threads about previously discussed topics is not a very respectful manner of conducting yourselves. New members have the option of conducting searches, or merely going back a few pages in a chosen area of the forum to research before posting. Take the time, read through and find that reasonable conclusions have already been attained on these matters.

As for Infanteer...Im pretty scared of the guy, so Ill zip it. But Infanteer, I commend you on your patience. Anyone have any comments before this thread bites the dust?

 

[chalk1]

I believe that the problem we are facing here is, as well as in other forums, is an identity crisis, which can be seen in other threads in this forum. People in society are so used to the fact that a military prepares for combat and all-out war that they simply can't fathom the concept of the cadet organisation. It's pretty simple, really; it was answered in the second posting of this topic. Yes, cadets are civilians, but have joined an organisation which fashions itself after the military due to historic ties. These have been carried over to what is now an excellent youth organisation, offering challenging and valuable training free of charge to the participant(thus promoting fairness and equality, fundamentals to our democracy). If, at the age of 16, the cadet feels he/she needs a further challenge and enjoys the military organisation, he/she may join the reserves.

 

[sgt_mandal]

If these topics do not apeal to you, why do you keep reading them?

As a moderator I must keep an eye on all threads to ensure the form is up to fighting form.

My statement comes from the fact that I see a new thread on this exact same subject every second month.

Than why don't you stick to moderating as opposed to participating?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Lad,
Don't pick a fight on the internet, its unmanly.
BRUCE

 

[sgt_mandal]

OK I just realized what I said was a little harsh. But do you not agree that you could have been a little nicer?

 

[NavyGrunt]

"Cadets isnt hard enough....."

"Please be nicer infanteer......"

??????????? :evil:

 

[Limpy]

Yep. I think I shall quit poking my nose in this thread. This horse is one thats been flogged enough, I see now. :-X

 

[Infanteer]

OK I just realized what I said was a little harsh. But do you not agree that you could have been a little nicer?

I gave up being nice 1700 posts ago....