Haggis
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For those with TLDR, a CAF MP MWO is suing over an alleged defect in the C22 pistol that cause him a career-ending injury.
CAF MP SUES DND AND SIG SAUER
- Thread starter Haggis
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He thought his foot was a raccoon.
McG
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Range shooting is training, so it is possible.
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Yes, that is my understanding. Since the MPs need to carry with a round chambered, they need to do holster drills that way, too. I guess.
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That USAF case is going to make the bar to prove it was not operator error, much higher.
MilEME09
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Correction this was not a C22, this was an earlier model P320 similar to what the USAF uses. The official investigation put no blame onto the pistol itself, though this incident is one of the reasons why there is only 1 allowed holster for the C22.
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Do they need to? (genuine question). If so, why don't police have a pistol with a safety?
McG
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Potentially that is what the Govt will have to explain in court.
Because when we need a pistol we may need it right the hell already, and an external safety is a fine motor skill that could easily not work well in that critical moment. It also means movement of the thumb which is trying to play a critical role in a strong, stable grip. External safeties are arguably obsolete for fighting pistols. I’m not saying there aren’t any police services out there with a pistol with external safety, but I couldn’t name one.
Bear in mind that the holster is not just multiple layers of retention, but it also covers the trigger and trigger guard. An external safety is more necessary with a long gun that’s at much greater risk of something snagging the trigger. Pistol triggers tend to be quite a bit heavier as well.
We actually sometimes had the amusingly opposite problem, where cops new to the C8 would forget there is an external safety and stumble at first when trying to fire.
If we have a gun on our hip, there’s one in the spout… So it’s just something we’re utterly used to. Outside of certain range exercises the only time I’ve ever worn my pistol without a round in was on a commercial aircraft, mag in my pocket. Very specific circumstances.
Concur. If you need a pistol, you need one in the chamber, and your training should be up to that task.
I would be completely unsurprised if this was a case of something maybe getting snagged in the holster.
Draw-shoot-assess-reholster drills are super normal and routine to rep out.
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Every police service in the country does this. Manual safeties are largely seen as obsolete one combat hand guns. Glocks use a trigger safety for example. A pistol should be bolstered with a round chambered. That keeps anything beyond the shooter from operating the trigger. Frankly if Brink's and G4S can have people driving around with chambered rounds anyone can.
In any event there are a number of C22 range practices that involve drawing a loaded readied pistol and firing - as that should be the expected standard.
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When I worked part-time at Brinks we carried a revolver, with a shotgun in the cab.
Read this about current policy,
- Chambered Status: As an armored transport company, Brink's typically trains their armed guards for duty with a round in the chamber for immediate defensive use.
Haggis
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This!
Plus this is Canada where you need to wear gloves for at least 5 months of the year.
I'm a professional firearms instructor with a large federal agency. We're in the process of selecting a new pistol and I had to demonstrate to some bean counters just how hard it is to disengage a manual safety with a gloved thumb under stress.
Quite possible as that was apprently the case with the occurence at DHTC.
Also, as noted by MilEME09, if this was an early 320 without the upgrade package and not a C22/C24, it's possible. That's why Sig Sauer came up with the upgrade. Of note, if you own an early 320, Sig Sauer will upgrade it for free.
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I would actually hazard a guess and say the CAF is probably the only organization in the country that doesnt begin pistol training with the pistol in the holster, to include the load ready drill ending with a return to holster.
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