CAF MP SUES DND AND SIG SAUER

[Seyek]

During the G8/G20 conference in 2010, the ROE were updated and redistributed almost daily. In one instance, an updated ROE card was issued with a glaring omission allowing soldiers to go from presence and verbal intervention to lethal force in a heartbeat as several paragraphs were dropped during editing. Needless to say, the CO and I put an immediate stop to the distribution of those cards.

They may have been updated, but they weren't distributed, at least not all the way down to those of us at the very not pointy end. I only got the one early on in the 'training' and the only changes I was told was repeated changes about whether or not gloves and sunglasses were use of force escalations (which did lead to a hilarious moment of someone yelling at us that we were escalating force by putting on gloves to deal with some prickly shrubbery). But that was also far and away the stupidest thing I have ever been involved in or witnessed so I shouldn't be surprised.

I remember during workup in Borden, you hanging out watching me and my section run through and then AAR one of the use of force escalation scenarios.

I remember infinite mosquitoes, suiting up with rain gear and gas masks to survive them, and someone doing a drive by bug coil throwing to try to help us.

Some of those scenarios were dumb as hell. "Population Encounters - How to deal with civilians." 50 % of his TF were P Res who were "civilians" only a short few days prior.

The most challenging part of that deployment was the Commander and his daily dress state directives. No dark lenses allowed in BEW because it was "intimidating". Donning gloves in view of the public was considered an escalation of force. And the best was he wanted 100% uniformity despite that 50% of his task force were P Res from every unit in Ontario. Good thing it was a dry depolyment.

I typed up my above response re: sunglasses before I worked my way through the thread to this. We did one scenario where our section commander took his sunglasses of (I think we started shades on? I can't remember), and at least one higher up, can't recall if it was the commander or not, changing his mind after watching that. As one of the PRes dudes there, the best and only useful parts of the training were the ones where we came up with the scenarios ourselves, typically from either members who had deployed previously and just generally had a lot more experience or those with relevant civilian equivalent experience which basically amounted to 'how to talk to people' taught by security guards because I'm not sure any cops wanted to give up their overtime/pay duty to do the dumber army version.

I had suppressed those memories, thanks.

Every few years enough of us who were there will end up in the same room, beers in hand, and have a collective crash out.

We talked about how someone should write a book about the shitshow. I wish we had at least kept enough notes to document what we could.

EDIT: Shoutout to the cop who showed up one night, crawled into buddy's sleeping bag, racked out the whole night, got up and immediately fucked off. Dude slept like the dead for near 12 hours. We did the math, reasonably sure he made more that shift than I did all week.

Back on the actual topic - I'm a firm believer in the 'train the pistol first on BMQ' idea after having it explained by one of the staff on my ASA and why he thought it was a good idea. I'd love to see A/B testing of a few courses training (by actually competent and experienced instructors) with the pistol first, then C7, versus a regular BMQ that trains on the pistol after and see how they both perform on the range with the weapons and general handling.

 

[KevinB]

Back on the actual topic - I'm a firm believer in the 'train the pistol first on BMQ' idea after having it explained by one of the staff on my ASA and why he thought it was a good idea. I'd love to see A/B testing of a few courses training (by actually competent and experienced instructors) with the pistol first, then C7, versus a regular BMQ that trains on the pistol after and see how they both perform on the range with the weapons and general handling.

I think the results would be rather eye opening for many.

 

[KevinB]

Civvy side I am a revolver guy. A DA/SA with a semi is the closest to what I am comfortable with. I consider DA as a safety over simple SA.

DAO would be much more similar to a revolver. Prior to the supremacy of striker guns for Mil/LE usage the DAO was being championed by a lot of folks for entities changing from revolvers.
The problem with heavier trigger pulls is while that heavier pull is theoretically safer from a ND standpoint, it was found that the heavier trigger pulls caused a lot more issues putting rounds on target with the average shooter. Even the NY trigger for Glock designed for NYPD was found to be a significant liability, and was leading to many missed shots, and those misses ending up finding themselves into civilians.

Either way, I don’t have a dog in the fight anymore. Glock seems to be a better choice which was avoided intentionally.

I think Glock would have been a better choice as well. I am no an Sig fan, at since the P226/8 series of guns, and I think the CAF made a poor choice - but it is what it is at this point.