CAF Sexual Misconduct PR War- Swerved Into a Mess Discussion

No surprise and pretty much expected. The SMSRC seems to be picking up speed in its delivery and the upcoming zoom discussion on April 11 will be interesting. Curious if Lise Bourgon will be attending and ask for "more positive" stories from MST survivors to help recruiting efforts again...

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Milnet.ca Staff

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Same within the RCCS. We have the Adjt's Aide-Memoire.

 

[Halifax Tar]

For sure. Violently concur on all.

I just don't think we're seeing an increase in occurrence, only in reporting. As is society. That we draw from.

And as such, I don't see this issue as a particularly military one. Where we are particularly concerned (and have been failing at) is the last thing you said (bolded), imho.

I guess we will sadly never know as many ( most ? ) SAs go unreported, it's estimated.

Like you I don't see it as a particularly military problem. It's societal problem. We simply inherit it as we're made up from that society.

As for hypersexualization, the access kids have to pornography is wildly different than when I was growing up. I know in my wife's primary school they are dealing with it being brought to the classroom. I can only imagine how bad it is in middle and highschool and beyond.

That kind of exposure to that kind of sexual information at that young of an age is bound to have and affect on the youth.

 

[TacticalTea]

That kind of exposure to that kind of sexual information at that young of an age is bound to have and affect on the youth.

Oh absolutely. But I don't think that effect is increased sexual activity across-the-board, as the data shows.

 

[Remius]

I guess we will sadly never know as many ( most ? ) SAs go unreported, it's estimated.

Like you I don't see it as a particularly military problem. It's societal problem. We simply inherit it as we're made up from that society.

The issue I think the military might have over society is that we have a much more hierarchical system than normal society. The power imbalance is a wider. Add forced subsidized drinking and social events and an imbalance of the demographics (our demographics are nowhere near representative of society). I think then it might be amplified. But that is similar to those same imbalances in organisations that have had historical sexual misconduct/abuse issues. The church, schools, fraternities, sports teams etc. It could that although we get what we get from society, that maybe because that representation is skewed that we get the problems we have.

As for hypersexualization, the access kids have to pornography is wildly different than when I was growing up. I know in my wife's primary school they are dealing with it being brought to the classroom. I can only imagine how bad it is in middle and highschool and beyond.

Bad. I had issues with my own kid dealing with that.

That kind of exposure to that kind of sexual information at that young of an age is bound to have and affect on the youth.

Smart phones.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Oh absolutely. But I don't think that effect is increased sexual activity across-the-board, as the data shows.

I honestly have to question the data. Im going of what I am witnessing and being told.

Perhaps what's happening is with the ability to connect to larger amounts of people, creating a larger pool of possible sexual partners to play in people can be more selective and doing it as much or more but just with a smaller amount of people.

I think I might be pushing into incel territory...

I know kids at my wife's elementary school are doing shit I hadn't even heard off in grade 5.

For reference in Halifax:

Kindergarten to Gr 6 is Primary School
Gr 7 to 9 is Middle School (Sometimes Gr 6)
Gr 10 to 12 is Highschool

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Smart phones.

That right there. When I hear folks say that people are getting crazier all the time I disagree by saying the people are the same, its the phones/internet that make the problem. Decades ago the odds must have been astronomical that those POS Holmoka and Bernardo actually met each other,....today they'd search each other out in minutes.

 

[TacticalTea]

I think I might be pushing into incel territory...

I don't think it's useful to think of any sociological conversation in those terms (or other goofy stuff like ''redpill, blackpill'', etc). Naturally, sociology is a difficult topic because it addresses events that are analogous to debaters' lived experiences, and some ideas/data points run counter to the narratives that each person has constructed to cope with their past. That is true for everyone. Hence the challenge.

That's not to say your personal experience is meaningless of course. It just means precision is of the utmost importance, which is why I specifically said :

I don't think that effect is increased sexual activity across-the-board, as the data shows.

Which leaves room for what you described:

people can be more selective and doing it as much or more but just with a smaller amount of people.

Honestly, there's so much to say on this matter we could easily fill a 3-hour podcast (the modern equivalent to ''write a book about it'' ).

I know kids at my wife's elementary school are doing shit I hadn't even heard off in grade 5.

I'd be curious to hear about the specifics, as I don't have much interactions with 5th graders in my life. Feel free to DM if that's too unseemly for the website's image.

It seems to me you're describing a qualitative variety of experiences, but not necessarily quantitative magnitude. Which still jives with the data.

And then of course, as you've alluded to, access to an unlimited fount of potential sexual partners does dramatically warp social interactions in that light, especially when you look at how disposable others become. The globalized dating economy is a very different market than what it used to be just ten years ago (back when you'd be mocked for going on online dating websites), where really the available pool was, in most cases, limited to the people in your local community, and that you could come across on a regular day.

There are gendered differences of course in how this unfolds. This page gives some insight into the differences for males and females, as it relates to a particular dating app. Similar dynamics observable across other apps, including Instagram.

Edit: Wanted to add, to address your concerns about data

I honestly have to question the data.

There might definitely be a tendency for men to exaggerate their numbers, and for women to downplay them, due to social pressures. But generally speaking, people are usually honest in anonymous polls.

 

[Brad Sallows]

It's a long way from magazine centrefolds to streaming video BDSM.

 

[Kat Stevens]

It's a long way from magazine centrefolds to streaming video BDSM.

I know, right? Someone needs to streamline that process

 

[NavyShooter]

I know, right? Someone needs to streamline that process

You could call it a Special Commissioning Process?

 

[Eaglelord17]

I honestly have to question the data. Im going of what I am witnessing and being told.

Perhaps what's happening is with the ability to connect to larger amounts of people, creating a larger pool of possible sexual partners to play in people can be more selective and doing it as much or more but just with a smaller amount of people.

I think I might be pushing into incel territory...

I know kids at my wife's elementary school are doing shit I hadn't even heard off in grade 5.

For reference in Halifax:

Kindergarten to Gr 6 is Primary School
Gr 7 to 9 is Middle School (Sometimes Gr 6)
Gr 10 to 12 is Highschool

Basically what is happening is women have much more options, and about 20% or so of men are getting laid a bunch more. The rest is getting laid much less.

The body counts of some people I have met is insane. I know multiple young women with counts in the 50s-100s, and thats at ages like 22. I only know one guy like that.

I am a firm believer the more time people spend together the more likely they are to become attracted to each other. People don’t spend as much time with others anymore, which in turn means those that those that aren’t as ‘flirtatious’ in style aren’t really meeting people. Modern dating apps are a terrible thing.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The issue I think the military might have over society is that we have a much more hierarchical system than normal society. The power imbalance is a wider. Add forced subsidized drinking and social events and an imbalance of the demographics (our demographics are nowhere near representative of society). I think then it might be amplified. But that is similar to those same imbalances in organisations that have had historical sexual misconduct/abuse issues. The church, schools, fraternities, sports teams etc. ...

Yup. And the difference between the military and the other groups is that there are a lot more structured tools & sanctions built in to deal with people not doing what they're told to do. And as others smarter than me have said previously here & elsewhere, if the initial miscreants had been both firmly and more consistently sanctioned, maybe there wouldn't have been the need for the broader strokes rules. Maybe ...

 

[Kilted]

A lot of the discussion has been focused towards Reg Force messes. Reserve messes are their own type of animal. First, there is regular attendance by a majority of the members (probably not as many as there was years ago when people were essentially forced to stay in the mess after parade nights in some places). Removing messes would definitely be felt in the reserves in the short term anyways. I'm sure that a few people would VR because the mess is basically the only reason they stay in. We may be better off without some of those individuals.

It would be very interesting to see the new soldiers that came out of battle school and progressing through the ranks without the social and consistent disciplinary issues related to the mess.

 

[daftandbarmy]

A lot of the discussion has been focused towards Reg Force messes. Reserve messes are their own type of animal. First, there is regular attendance by a majority of the members (probably not as many as there was years ago when people were essentially forced to stay in the mess after parade nights in some places). Removing messes would definitely be felt in the reserves in the short term anyways. I'm sure that a few people would VR because the mess is basically the only reason they stay in. We may be better off without some of those individuals.

It would be very interesting to see the new soldiers that came out of battle school and progressing through the ranks without the social and consistent disciplinary issues related to the mess.

Experiences vary, but over the past 20 years I've seen Reserve Messes in a state of more or less constant decline and disorganization.

They always seem to be on the verge of financial collapse and social irrelevance. Few are used for more than a couple of hours once per week, after parade night training, plus maybe three or four big-ish weekend social events annually. Some are permanently 'in the shit' with unit fund managers and auditors for various financial mismanagement reasons.

Many nights, despite a bar tender being paid to be there, no one turns up at all. Changing lifestyle choices also means that 'new kids' are more likely to order a non-alcoholic drink then head home before 2300hrs than close the bar down at 0100hrs after pounding all the available beer (and spending all their student loan money).

As a result, they seem to be a constant source of financial strife of one type or another, and the insanely wide range of mess committee member competence and involvement adds huge risks for the unit, and CO.

Despite this reality, vast areas of ancient armouries, with scant space available for useful 21st C style training activities, are permanently usurped by these obsolete clubs. My former unit's armoury, for example, has six separate, fully licensed, messes occupying most of the available (potential) training spaces on the top floor while one lonely, poorly equipped training classroom (seats 40) is available on the ground floor, quaintly equipped with a whiteboard and the same folding tables and chairs that have been there since Noah disembarked.

In dozens of similar situations across the country this gross disparity between space allocated for operational readiness training versus 'social activities' is stark, ironic, and probably negligent.

But, as I said, experiences vary...

 

[Remius]

A lot of the discussion has been focused towards Reg Force messes. Reserve messes are their own type of animal. First, there is regular attendance by a majority of the members (probably not as many as there was years ago when people were essentially forced to stay in the mess after parade nights in some places). Removing messes would definitely be felt in the reserves in the short term anyways. I'm sure that a few people would VR because the mess is basically the only reason they stay in. We may be better off without some of those individuals.

It would be very interesting to see the new soldiers that came out of battle school and progressing through the ranks without the social and consistent disciplinary issues related to the mess.

Which is why they should be voluntary. If people want to pay in and keep it viable then more power to them. If not let them die and people can do what everyone else does and find a drinking hole to hang out at. I say this as someone who does support their mess.

 

[quadrapiper]

Experiences vary, but over the past 20 years I've seen Reserve Messes in a state of more or less constant decline and disorganization.

They always seem to be on the verge of financial collapse and social irrelevance. Few are used for more than a couple of hours once per week, after parade night training, plus maybe three or four big-ish weekend social events annually. Some are permanently 'in the shit' with unit fund managers and auditors for various financial mismanagement reasons.

Many nights, despite a bar tender being paid to be there, no one turns up at all. Changing lifestyle choices also means that 'new kids' are more likely to order a non-alcoholic drink then head home before 2300hrs than close the bar down at 0100hrs after pounding all the available beer (and spending all their student loan money).

As a result, they seem to be a constant source of financial strife of one type or another, and the insanely wide range of mess committee member competence and involvement adds huge risks for the unit, and CO.

Despite this reality, vast areas of ancient armouries, with scant space available for useful 21st C style training activities, are permanently usurped by these obsolete clubs. My former unit's armoury, for example, has six separate, fully licensed, messes occupying most of the available (potential) training spaces on the top floor while one lonely, poorly equipped training classroom (seats 40) is available on the ground floor, quaintly equipped with a whiteboard and the same folding tables and chairs that have been there since Noah disembarked.

In dozens of similar situations across the country this gross disparity between space allocated for operational readiness training versus 'social activities' is stark, ironic, and probably negligent.

But, as I said, experiences vary...

That particular venue also has massive acreage taken up by at least one unit museum. Wonder what the appetite would be to move that to somewhere else (Fort Rodd, e.g.) where it might get more eyes.

Trying to imagine the politics of merging down to three messes there, let alone a combined mess.

 

[daftandbarmy]

That particular venue also has massive acreage taken up by at least two unit museums. Wonder what the appetite would be to move that to somewhere else (Fort Rodd, e.g.) where it might get more eyes.

Trying to imagine the politics of merging down to three messes there, let alone a combined mess.

There, FTFY ...

A previous Brigade Commander, a former CO, tried that amalgamation thing once.

It didn't go well for him

 

[ueo]

That particular venue also has massive acreage taken up by at least one unit museum. Wonder what the appetite would be to move that to somewhere else (Fort Rodd, e.g.) where it might get more eyes.

Trying to imagine the politics of merging down to three messes there, let alone a combined mess.

G&SF in Barrie did exactly this. Reclaimed origional armory and voila. See their website.

 

[TacticalTea]

Experiences vary, but over the past 20 years I've seen Reserve Messes in a state of more or less constant decline and disorganization.

They always seem to be on the verge of financial collapse and social irrelevance. Few are used for more than a couple of hours once per week, after parade night training, plus maybe three or four big-ish weekend social events annually. Some are permanently 'in the shit' with unit fund managers and auditors for various financial mismanagement reasons.

That seems like a healthy usage for a reserve mess. When else should they be used than when its members come to the unit?

Many nights, despite a bar tender being paid to be there, no one turns up at all. Changing lifestyle choices also means that 'new kids' are more likely to order a non-alcoholic drink then head home before 2300hrs than close the bar down at 0100hrs after pounding all the available beer (and spending all their student loan money).

Why is a bartender being paid? Just have mess members do the bartending.

As a result, they seem to be a constant source of financial strife of one type or another, and the insanely wide range of mess committee member competence and involvement adds huge risks for the unit, and CO.

Despite this reality, vast areas of ancient armouries, with scant space available for useful 21st C style training activities, are permanently usurped by these obsolete clubs. My former unit's armoury, for example, has six separate, fully licensed, messes occupying most of the available (potential) training spaces on the top floor while one lonely, poorly equipped training classroom (seats 40) is available on the ground floor, quaintly equipped with a whiteboard and the same folding tables and chairs that have been there since Noah disembarked.

Every mess I've known - at sea and ashore - gets used for a variety of extraneous purposes including training.

In dozens of similar situations across the country this gross disparity between space allocated for operational readiness training versus 'social activities' is stark, ironic, and probably negligent.

But, as I said, experiences vary...

Experience does vary indeed.

This seems to be an issue more with the Army's management culture than with the messes themselves.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Why is a bartender being paid? Just have mess members do the bartending.

Gee, where do I start?

No one is 'Serving it Right' certified, 20 year old subalterns are awful at managing cash floats, no one knows how to manage the containers, and any number of other issues that shoots the risk profile of the organization into the stratosphere.

BLUF: irresponsible drunks serving other irresponsible drunks just never ends well. And Officers should be enjoying the mess they pay dues into, not serving other mess members.