Canada doesn’t matter to the rest of the world - and it’s our own fault

[Booter]

We had a wait list of 7000 ppl wanting to join the Army during the Afghan war years...just sayin'...

So I was with some flag officers for a thing back…2015ish. We were discussing with a soon to retire or recently retired General things like “purpose”. Even the worst missions in the last few decades was “purpose” and you would get people to work through not so great pay, equipment, and conditions- for something with purpose. They didn’t want that to be reality for young soldiers- they wanted them looked after- it was just how much of a factor “purpose” is. It may be THE factor.

I don’t believe this includes the traditional away from danger training missions- if that’s all you have on the table you see even high performers leaving for positions where you do the job.

But sometimes it kinda strikes me that the “support at home” missions like fires and floods and pandemics keep drifting towards domination of our tasks because the government does not want us in shooting matches, it doesn’t want to pay for the kit needed and won’t risk the votes when people die.

So the military knows that it has to keep people engaged- so they keep looking for any place to add value, looking for somewhere to be operational, and then it becomes an expectation keeping down costs for other agencies that should be probably funded differently. Which is attractive.

2024 fire season is going to be absolutely gonzo- I hope you all have your trench tools ready.

You are all way more experienced than I am- so if you can correct me, please do- I left that night with this idea and I haven’t been able to shake it

 

[Castus]

What we need to do is figure out what gets healthy, young, fighting age Canadian males motivated angry enough to join the military for 3- 5 years. And forget the lifetime career BS, young men are just not interested in that anymore. Nobody wants to raise a family in a military slum and the Canadian government isn't going to do much to improve what already exists.
A 3-5 years reg force commitment and a lifetime revolving door at their own initiative and option between classes of service is where this needs to go or there will not be any military at all within 10 years. If someone wants to serve 25 years straight, well good for them - incentivize the hell out of that- but don't make it an absolute necessary.

What happens now is that we try to encourage everyone to be a lifer, rather than encourage as many Canadians to join the Armed Forces for an initial engagement as possible. Any service is valuable to the nation. Further - it is natural for the rank pyramid to thin out as time goes on.

 

[Cloud Cover]

What happens now is that we try to encourage everyone to be a lifer, rather than encourage as many Canadians to join the Armed Forces for an initial engagement as possible. Any service is valuable to the nation. Further - it is natural for the rank pyramid to thin out as time goes on.

You’re right.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Baby snakes in the food? Please tell me you're exaggerating for effect?

Kingston, I believe.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Well exactly. Very few young, fit, healthy males want to join a military with a government that sees changing diapers and serving glasses of water to 19 year old summer student wildfire fighters as a proper military role.
Or live in shacks with flooded bathrooms, baby snakes in the food, rats in the closet.

Are we training the US Rangers here now?

 

[Cloud Cover]

Are we training the US Rangers here now?

Well, they can’t all be Irish …

 

[RangerRay]

But sometimes it kinda strikes me that the “support at home” missions like fires and floods and pandemics keep drifting towards domination of our tasks because the government does not want us in shooting matches, it doesn’t want to pay for the kit needed and won’t risk the votes when people die.

Think it’s more the provincial governments are skimping out on their resources to respond to domestic emergencies much like the Feds skimp out on their resources to respond to external emergencies (e.g. the CAF). Rather than beefing up their resources, the provinces are relying on the Feds to backstop them more and more. Soldiers get tired of being a backstop for inadequate provincial planning and funding and leave.

 

[FSTO]

So this is where a federal government says to the provinces to get their poop together. There’s a war coming and we cannot save your asses with the CAF.

 

[Booter]

Think it’s more the provincial governments are skimping out on their resources to respond to domestic emergencies much like the Feds skimp out on their resources to respond to external emergencies (e.g. the CAF). Rather than beefing up their resources, the provinces are relying on the Feds to backstop them more and more. Soldiers get tired of being a backstop for inadequate provincial planning and funding and leave.

Right but they have that option because at some point the CF was excited to take the tasking.

I recall the first big wildland thing they asked for help with twenty years ago- BC maybe? It was a large mobilization, I feel like it was the first large scale one?

The ability to respond to disasters in Canada is awful. I don’t think people truly understand the lack of capacity we have. But that’s a tangent lol

This link says requests are doubling every five years.

Probably enough work for a medium sized fed agency…but that’s more expensive.

Operation LENTUS - Canada.ca

Canadian Armed Forces response to natural disasters, forest fires, floods in Canada.

www.canada.ca

Operation Peregrine was the one I was thinking of. Third largest aid operation in Canada that the forces had ever done. Behind the ice storm and the red river floods…five and 7 years prior

There is an expertise that the CF brings to logistics and scale. But they can teach a disaster agency that as well.

 

[OldSolduer]

Right but they have that option because at some point the CF was excited to take the tasking.

I recall the first big wildland thing they asked for help with twenty years ago- BC maybe? It was a large mobilization, I feel like it was the first large scale one?

Winnipeg 1997 - huge flood and the CAF got the tasking. I was in Bosnia at the time.

 

[Booter]

Winnipeg 1997 - huge flood and the CAF got the tasking. I was in Bosnia at the time.

Yeah that was the first of the large order ops. I recall around the ice storm there was much conversation because after the flood and the ice storm the CF was concerned for a short while that they were getting inappropriately looped into a regular function of disaster response.

This is all really vague recollection.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yeah that was the first of the large order ops. I recall around the ice storm there was much conversation because after the flood and the ice storm the CF was concerned for a short while that they were getting inappropriately looped into a regular function of disaster response.

This is all really vague recollection.

Oh, we remember Mel Lastman alright

Twenty-five years ago, Toronto called in the army to clean up after a snowstorm. Here's how the Star reported it in 1999

On Jan. 14, 1999, then-Toronto mayor Mel Lastman notoriously brought in the Canadian Armed Forces to downtown Toronto as the region was repeatedly blasted by severe snowstorms in a two-week

www.thestar.com

 

[RangerRay]

Right but they have that option because at some point the CF was excited to take the tasking.

I recall the first big wildland thing they asked for help with twenty years ago- BC maybe? It was a large mobilization, I feel like it was the first large scale one?

The ability to respond to disasters in Canada is awful. I don’t think people truly understand the lack of capacity we have. But that’s a tangent lol

This link says requests are doubling every five years.

Probably enough work for a medium sized fed agency…but that’s more expensive.

Operation LENTUS - Canada.ca

Canadian Armed Forces response to natural disasters, forest fires, floods in Canada.

www.canada.ca

Operation Peregrine was the one I was thinking of. Third largest aid operation in Canada that the forces had ever done. Behind the ice storm and the red river floods…five and 7 years prior

There is an expertise that the CF brings to logistics and scale. But they can teach a disaster agency that as well.

Yep, full agree. But I still maintain that if the provinces were properly funding their response agencies, they wouldn’t need the military unless it’s a truly SHTF moment, like it should be.

I don’t see this as some way to keep the CAF out of fights. Many (most?) civilian bureaucrats and politicians think soldiers are sitting around garrison just waiting to get the call out. And the Feds are very obliging.

As has been demonstrated several times over the last few years, all governments across Canada lack capacity to deal with anything beyond normal. And we’re not in normal times.

 

[KevinB]

Winnipeg 1997 - huge flood and the CAF got the tasking.

Yeah one of the reasons I got out (the first time).

 

[Booter]

Yeah one of the reasons I got out (the first time).

Non-swimmer

 

[foresterab]

Not to minimize the very valid issues if the CAF is the primary agency for disaster response...which I fully don't believe they should be. But I've also just finished reading the report of a 1956 forest fire fatality due to the 1 PPCLI being called out at the base commanders orders to assist fires here in Alberta due to a shortage of manpower available. And yes...that is in the days of conscripting able bodied males from bars/roads...but still not enough.

The difference is as I understand it was that it was the base commanders decision to release the troops (i.e. way more power at the unit level) assuming no conflicts with other training/missions and the potential manpower within the province didn't exist that exists today. Unfortunately liability rules have also changed so much over the last 20 years let alone 70 years that solutions that were options then don't realistically exist today.

 

[OldSolduer]

Yep, full agree. But I still maintain that if the provinces were properly funding their response agencies, they wouldn’t need the military unless it’s a truly SHTF moment, like it should be.

I don’t see this as some way to keep the CAF out of fights. Many (most?) civilian bureaucrats and politicians think soldiers are sitting around garrison just waiting to get the call out. And the Feds are very obliging.

As has been demonstrated several times over the last few years, all governments across Canada lack capacity to deal with anything beyond normal. And we’re not in normal times

The provinces shirk their responsibilities because they know the Feds will bail them out no matter what, there fore the provinces can buy votes I mean fund important programs for the hard working proletariat oops I mean the people.....

 

[mariomike]

Oh, we remember Mel Lastman alright

 

[Aper]

We had a wait list of 7000 ppl wanting to join the Army during the Afghan war years...just sayin'...

And how many empty positions currently in both Reg and PRes ? 15 000 and counting ? Even more maybe ?

I've been in the CAF back in 2004-2008 and served in A-Stan. I waited 1 1/2 years before starting BMQ. Today, i'm getting back in the Reserve and 20 years later, nothing really much changed. The big bureaucratic machine is as slow, if not more, as when I joined 20 years back. How many people wanted to join but gave up mid-way because the delays are extremely long ? The CAF, as well as any other Federal department in this country is lacking efficiency and speed, and please don,t give me that ''lack of employee'' BS. The CAF needs to change it's bureaucratic procedures and endless enrollment processes and it makes its really discouraging for a lot of future recruits, especially with the bad press the CAF had in the last few years. It's nothing to help.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I signed up in November and started my recruit course at the unit in February. I think back then they ran a course 2-3 times a year.