Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[Czech_pivo]

Seasonality and Quebec?

The port of Montreal is open 12 months of the year. So we'd be talking about ice breaking from that area up until the Port of Montreal where icebreaking must already be occuring.

As for Quebec, what of it? No facilities would be built in the province. Only ships would be sailing down the St Lawrence. The St Lawrence Seaway and all shipping along it comes under Federal jurisdiction, not provincial.

 

[McG]

I wonder how feasible it would be to run a new line to this area: 45°09'48.0"N 74°27'07.9"W

Are you trying to sell that farm?
It is probably not the best location given the homes & highway that are between it and the river.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Are you trying to sell that farm?
It is probably not the best location given the homes & highway that are between it and the river.

No, lol.
But I live close to this facility - 43°22'23.8"N 79°42'54.1"W

That refinery facility used to be owned by PetroCan. As you can see, large tanker farm and it’s surrounded by homes and industrial buildings. It only closed in 2005.

Oakville Refinery (Petro-Canada) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And something similar could be achieved at the location I pegged.
Small footprint along the shore, much larger footprint inland, maybe north of the highway.

 

[FSTO]

Saw this posted somewhere,

Half of Canadians would volunteer to fight if war breaks out, and fewer young people, poll finds

For years, the Canadian Armed Forces has been dealing with a recruitment crisis and public pride in the military has taken a hit.

nationalpost.com

80 years ago, the crew of HMCS UGANDA was asked, "Do you volunteer to fight against the Japanese?"

605 out of the 907 crew refused to volunteer. The ship returned to Esquimalt.

Of course, this was before A-bombs, and casualty estimates for Operation Downfall were very high.

Not quite as simple as that.

Reason's why Uganda didn't stay are outlined here:

The UGANDA Episode - CFB Esquimalt Naval and Military Museum

navalandmilitarymuseum.org

 

[YZT580]

The port of Montreal is open 12 months of the year. So we'd be talking about ice breaking from that area up until the Port of Montreal where icebreaking must already be occuring.

As for Quebec, what of it? No facilities would be built in the province. Only ships would be sailing down the St Lawrence. The St Lawrence Seaway and all shipping along it comes under Federal jurisdiction, not provincial.

I would imagine that ice breaking through a canal would be a bitch. It is blocked by locks which would need to be kept clear and there is no clear run for the broken ice to be washed downstream. Also, your ships would be limited to the lock size. You might just as easily re-build the Bronte tank farm and run 9 months a year, shipping a years worth of oil while the canals are open. By opening in Oakville you would save at least 5 days round trip travel using storage in Lakehead and avoid the storms of November as Gordon Lightfoot put it.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I would imagine that ice breaking through a canal would be a bitch. It is blocked by locks which would need to be kept clear and there is no clear run for the broken ice to be washed downstream. Also, your ships would be limited to the lock size. You might just as easily re-build the Bronte tank farm and run 9 months a year, shipping a years worth of oil while the canals are open. By opening in Oakville you would save at least 5 days round trip travel using storage in Lakehead and avoid the storms of November as Gordon Lightfoot put it.

The largest ships able to transit the St. Lawrence Seaway are Seawaymax vessels. These ships have a maximum length of 225.5 meters (740 feet), a beam (width) of 23.8 meters (78 feet), and a draft (depth below the waterline) of 8.08 meters (26.5 feet).
Here's a breakdown of common tanker sizes and their corresponding characteristics:

• Coastal Tankers:
  These are smaller tankers, typically under 50,000 DWT, used for transporting refined petroleum products.
  
  
• Panamax:
  These tankers are around 50,000 to 75,000 DWT, with a length of about 230 meters (755 feet).
  
  
• Aframax:
  These are medium-sized tankers, around 80,000 to 120,000 DWT, with a length of about 245 meters (804 feet).
  
  
• Suezmax:
  These tankers are designed to navigate the Suez Canal, typically around 120,000 to 200,000 DWT, with a length of about 285 meters (935 feet).
  
  
• VLCC (Very Large Crude Carrier):
  These are large tankers, up to around 320,000 DWT, with a length of about 330 meters (1,080 feet).
  ULCC (Ultra Large Crude Carrier):
  The largest tankers, exceeding 320,000 DWT, with some reaching over 550,000 DWT and lengths up to 415 meters (1,362 feet).
  
  As for the closing of the locks, that time period would most likely by somewhere between the first week of Dec to the third week of December, the opening is typically the last week of March into the first week of April - 9 months like you said.
  A typical Panamax oil tanker carries around 500,000 barrels of oil. Sadly the typical Panamax has a beam of 32m and a draft of 12m. So a ship with a smaller beam and draft would be needed, which means Coastal Tankers.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

 

[mariomike]

Not quite as simple as that.

Right.

I should have been more specific.

The National Post survey simply asked Canadians if they would be willing to fight in a war.

A very simple question.

If they had been in the same situation as the crew of HMCS UGANDA, perhaps the poll results would have been different.

Or, perhaps not. < dunno emoji.

 

[YZT580]

• Coastal Tankers:
  These are smaller tankers, typically under 50,000 DWT, used for transporting refined petroleum products.

By your answer I am guessing that the St. Lawrence locks close sooner and open later in the season than the Welland. The other option would be a fleet of Seaway Max tankers commuting to a tank farm in Newfoundland or New Brunswick. Would still save having to build a line through Quebec and would enable the use of larger tankers across the Atlantic. Probably still cheaper than building a fleet of ice capable tankers (unknown size) plus all the infrastructure that would be needed in Hudson Bay.

 

[Czech_pivo]

By your answer I am guessing that the St. Lawrence locks close sooner and open later in the season than the Welland. The other option would be a fleet of Seaway Max tankers commuting to a tank farm in Newfoundland or New Brunswick. Would still save having to build a line through Quebec and would enable the use of larger tankers across the Atlantic. Probably still cheaper than building a fleet of ice capable tankers (unknown size) plus all the infrastructure that would be needed in Hudson Bay.

Not really, it is weather dependent.

The St. Lawrence Seaway is scheduled to close for the 2024 navigation season on January 5, 2024, for the Montreal-Lake Ontario section and January 10, 2024, for the Welland Canal section. This allows time for maintenance and to account for any disruptions from the previous year.

So this past season shipping was open from that 'pinned' location until 5 Jan, so I'd imagine that the last ship at the hypothetical shipping spot would be 1 or 2 Jan and then needed to be east of the Port of Montreal on the 5th of Jan.

Forget Quebec and the hassles that they bring (at least in this particular case). Build a tank farm and ship for 9 months of the year.

I'd like to know if it could be feasible to do both. Maybe one LNG and one oil, with the oil moving to Saint John for refining (and the extra revenue that brings) and then shipping around the world.

 

[Kirkhill]

Algoma runs tankers throught the Seaway. They are ice strengthened. They work out of the Irvine refinery.

Our Fleet - Algoma Central Corporation

OUR FLEETS We own and operate Canadian flagged fleet of self-unloading and gearless dry-bulk carriers and product tanker vessels operating in the Great Lakes – St. Lawrence Seaway. Algoma currently has 17 vessels on order or under construction, including 10 climate-friendly product tankers under...

www.algonet.com

product tankers​

The Product Tankers fleet consists of eight product tankers employed in Canadian flag service. The segment also includes the Company’s 50% interest in an international joint venture comprising ten newbuild tankers, five of which are currently under construction with five having been delivered so far, and an interest in a foreign-flagged tanker operation comprising two product tankers. Our customers include major oil refiners, leading wholesale distributors, and large consumers of petroleum products.

domestic​

All of our product tankers are ice-class vessels, with reinforced hulls and icebreaking capabilities. In June 2023, Algoma placed an order for two 37,000 DWT ice-class product tanker vessels which were designed to optimize carbon requirements, possessing optionality for future methanol and shore power capabilities. Both vessels will be entered on long-term time charters to Irving Oil under Canadian flag, servicing the energy company’s refinery in Saint John, New Brunswick, with deliveries to ports in Atlantic Canada and the US East Coast.

37,000 DWT is 259,000 barrels approx.

TMX is moving 890,000 barrels per day and Burnaby is shipping about 400,000 barrels per day by sea.

 

[McG]

The pipeline concern in Quebec was related to Montrealer's objection to it crossing the St Lawrence. So, don't cross the St Lawrence. Build a pipe that passes somewhere north of Timmins and terminates at Pointe-au-Pic, Forestville, Baie-Comeau, or Sept-Iles.

We are well off the 2% to 3.5% defence spending topic now ... though, I guess still in the additional 1.5% defence adjacent discussion.

 

[Kirkhill]

The pipeline concern in Quebec was related to Montrealer's objection to it crossing the St Lawrence. So, don't cross the St Lawrence. Build a pipe that passes somewhere north of Timmins and terminates at Pointe-au-Pic, Forestville, Baie-Comeau, or Sept-Iles.

We are well off the 2% to 3.5% defence spending topic now ... though, I guess still in the additional 1.5% defence adjacent discussion.

Being trying to keep this line contained to the separate pipeline thread. But dollars seem to matter.

 

[Kirkhill]

Mea culpa @McG

I mis-filed a couple of pipeline articles this morning. 'pologies.