Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[suffolkowner]

Ian Poulter explained all back in 2012

View attachment 94033

https://ndia.dtic.mil/wp-content/uploads/2012/tactical/poulter.pdf

Your heavy shall become medium, your medium shall become light and you shall gain a whole new class of super heavies which shall become your new heavies.

Meanwhile your lights will be Light Utility Vehicles (LUVs) and Light Force Enhancements (LFEs)

Light Utility Vehicle - Defence Capabilities Blueprint

Light Utility Vehicle - Defence Capabilities Blueprint

apps.forces.gc.ca

View attachment 94034 LUV ~ Milverado 2500

Light Forces Enhancement - Defence Capabilities Blueprint

Light Forces Enhancement - Defence Capabilities Blueprint

apps.forces.gc.ca

View attachment 94035View attachment 94036

LFE-TMP Light Force Enhancement - Tactical Mobility Platform ~ ISV Infantry Squad Vehicle (Chev Colorado) or MRZR D4 from Polaris.
The ISV was selected for the Lithuanian Latvian (Sorry. My Error) mission for use by the third battalions that would be flying over.

....

Note that the LVM-Light range is 2 to 4 tonnes. The vehicle that was in that range was the Deuce / Deuce and a half with a load rating of 2.5 tonnes off road and 5 tonnes on highways. Latterly it was known as the MLVW or the Medium Logistic Vehicle Wheeled.

So

1300 MSVS
3 axle
9.5T axles?
8 tonne payload

1587 MSVS-SMP
4 axle
9.5T axles?
10 tonne payload

500 LVM Heavy
4 axle
13.5 T axles?
15 tonne payload

1000 LVM light
2 axle
13.5T axles?
4 tonne payload

 

[MilEME09]

It can be both.

RCD land battleship?

 

[Fabius]

Bit of detail on that whole Coast Guard thing ....

Military vice-chief says there are no plans to arm Coast Guard vessels

OTTAWA - The vice chief of the defence staff says the federal government does not intend to arm the Canadian Coast Guard.

www.thecanadianpressnews.ca

From the piece:
View attachment 94021

It’s ridiculous but it seems Canada is already counting over 60% of the Coast Guard budget as defence and has been since around 2022.

How that is justifiable in any way is incredible. Doesn’t speak to any actual seriousness in capability but rather only political theatre.

 

[Altair]

It’s ridiculous but it seems Canada is already counting over 60% of the Coast Guard budget as defence and has been since around 2022.

How that is justifiable in any way is incredible. Doesn’t speak to any actual seriousness in capability but rather only political theatre.

How many other nations make their 2 percent based on funny accounting?

I know Greece never gets yelled at because they spend 3 percent or more on defense, but a lot of that is pensions and personnel costs. USA counts the coast guard. France counts their national police force.

NATO is a giant shell game.

 

[Ludoc]

RCD land battleship?

They have already leaned forward, adopting the Navy's black berets.

 

[Fabius]

How many other nations make their 2 percent based on funny accounting?

I know Greece never gets yelled at because they spend 3 percent or more on defense, but a lot of that is pensions and personnel costs. USA counts the coast guard. France counts their national police force.

NATO is a giant shell game.

It may be a shell game but it’s because of various nations like Canada making it one.

In no way can one equate the USCG or the French Gendarmerie to anything in Canada. Those elements and others like them have very clear and obvious defence purposes that are clearly in line with NATOs guidelines and would be so to a layman.
The same cannot be said of the Canadian Coast Guard.

We will see but to me this is one indication that Canada is not fundamentally interested in becoming a serious nation, despite the new PM. We are still insisting on doing as little as possible.

 

[Altair]

It may be a shell game but it’s because of various nations like Canada making it one.

In no way can one equate the USCG or the French Gendarmerie to anything in Canada. Those elements and others like them have very clear and obvious defence purposes that are clearly in line with NATOs guidelines and would be so to a layman.
The same cannot be said of the Canadian Coast Guard.

We will see but to me this is one indication that Canada is not fundamentally interested in becoming a serious nation, despite the new PM. We are still insisting on doing as little as possible.

I will not claim to be an expert, so if you know more than I then feel free to educate me on the topic.

USCG vs CCG. I know the USCG is armed, but other than that, what would the fundamental differences be?

Gendarmerie vs RCMP. Differences between the two, other than mandate?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Just for reference on Greece.

List of equipment of the Hellenic Army - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

List of active Hellenic Navy ships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hellenic Air Force - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[The Bread Guy]

Just for reference on Greece.

List of equipment of the Hellenic Army - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

List of active Hellenic Navy ships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hellenic Air Force - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Good reminder - including how often the word “firefighting” turns up in the Air Force inventory. #TopGunWaterbomber

Gendarmerie vs RCMP. Differences between the two, other than mandate?

Former is under MoD while latter is under Public Safety. As some smarter than I have suggested, if you make the RCMP paramilitary under MoD, may not even need red caps anymore I suspect the org transition could be … complex though, so only thrown out there as a thought experiment.

 

[Seyek]

How many other nations make their 2 percent based on funny accounting?

I know Greece never gets yelled at because they spend 3 percent or more on defense, but a lot of that is pensions and personnel costs. USA counts the coast guard. France counts their national police force.

NATO is a giant shell game.

As I understand it NATO does it's own accounting based on its own standards, so while countries will undoubtedly play games with their spending there exists the opportunity for Canada to say 'look, we spent 2%' and NATO to say 'you absolutely did not, the union employees counting polar bears in the arctic don't count'.

They have already leaned forward, adopting the Navy's black berets.

Black berets, operate tanks landships, or would if they had them. I think the path forward for army modernization and to improve our 'jointness' is clear. The RCAC merges with the RCN as a joint force, so RCDs can crew RCDs, alleviating the crewing problem for the new seatanks until new landships are bought.

I will not claim to be an expert, so if you know more than I then feel free to educate me on the topic.

USCG vs CCG. I know the USCG is armed, but other than that, what would the fundamental differences be?

Gendarmerie vs RCMP. Differences between the two, other than mandate?

Uniformed military service that deploys on expeditionary operations, and even maintains a permanent overseas. It's ships are not only armed with a deck gun, but also carry sensors and self defence systems akin to warships such as EW, decoys, and previously were armed with more capable weapons like Harpoon missiles. Here's an article about a recent RIMPAC where a USCG cutter embarked a navy helicopter to do ASW missions and provided naval gunfire support. They can and do a lot of lower end security tasks, and did so through things like the Iraq war. It's like navy defence and security tasks combined with policing, with the ability to fit out for higher end war time roles vs the CCG which does science, aid to navigation, SAR, and carries police dets for local policing.

Re: Gendarmerie vs RCMP - the gendarmerie is quite large, I wonder how much of their budget actually counts as defence spending.

 

[Fabius]

Gendarmerie vs RCMP. Differences between the two, other than mandate?

Gendarmerie is under the Ministry of Defence
Gendarmerie are the military police for the French Military
Gendarmerie are responsible for security at all military and civilian airports, nuclear facilities and all military facilities
Is responsible for the security of the French Nuclear Deterrent


Has an approx 12,000 person Mobile Gendarmerie that has at any time 20% of its force forward deployed outside France to either the French territories or alongside the French Military on missions providing police, security and stability forces in formed units and sub units.

They are a national police force but they are also something very foreign to North America and large swaths of the organization are very very different from the RCMP.

 

[QV]

How many other nations make their 2 percent based on funny accounting?

I know Greece never gets yelled at because they spend 3 percent or more on defense, but a lot of that is pensions and personnel costs. USA counts the coast guard. France counts their national police force.

NATO is a giant shell game.

edit... answered far better by many above me.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

They have already leaned forward, adopting the Navy's black berets.

Methinks you have your provenance wrong

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Gendarmerie is under the Ministry of Defence
Gendarmerie are the military police for the French Military
Gendarmerie are responsible for security at all military and civilian airports, nuclear facilities and all military facilities
Is responsible for the security of the French Nuclear Deterrent


Has an approx 12,000 person Mobile Gendarmerie that has at any time 20% of its force forward deployed outside France to either the French territories or alongside the French Military on missions providing police, security and stability forces in formed units and sub units.

They are a national police force but they are also something very foreign to North America and large swaths of the organization are very very different from the RCMP.

Very similar to Italy's Carabinieri and Spain's Guardia Civil.

 

[McG]

Gendarmerie are the military police for the French Military

Well, not the military police but they are both military and police. Wikipedia gets this right: A gendarmerie is a paramilitary or military force with law enforcement duties among the civilian population.

 

[Fabius]

Well, not the military police but they are both military and police. Wikipedia gets this right: A gendarmerie is a paramilitary or military force with law enforcement duties among the civilian population.

I meant that the French Gendarmerie is the organization that provides the personnel who conduct internal law enforcement functions for the French military.
They also do the other functions for the French military that are done in Canada by the MP branch.

 

[BdaDug]

TLDR: Simply moving CG under MND doesn't magically increase spending against the 2%; some CG spend qualifies based on role/capability.


NATO's definition of qualifying "defence expenditures" that qualify against the spending targets is here: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49198.htm ... and italicized text that follows is copied from that NATO document.

Key elements of the definition include:

• Defence expenditure is defined by NATO as payments made by a national government (excluding regional, local and municipal authorities) specifically to meet the needs of its armed forces, those of Allies or of the Alliance.
  
• A major component of defence expenditure is payments for Armed Forces financed from within the Ministry of Defence budget. Armed Forces include land, maritime and air forces as well as joint formations, such as Administration and Command, Special Operations Forces, Medical Service, Logistic Command, Space Command, Cyber Command.
  
• They might also include parts of other forces such as Ministry of Interior troops, national police forces, coast guards etc. In such cases, expenditure is included only in proportion to the forces that are trained in military tactics, are equipped as a military force, can operate under direct military authority in deployed operations, and can, realistically, be deployed outside national territory in support of a military force. Expenditure on other forces financed through the budgets of ministries other than the Ministry of Defence is also included in defence expenditure.

Also of note:

• Retirement pensions made directly by the government to retired military and civilian employees of military departments and for active personnel are included
  
  
• Expenditure for the military component of mixed civilian-military activities is included, but only when the military component can be specifically accounted for or estimated. For example, these include airfields, meteorological services, aids to navigation, joint procurement services, research and development.
  
  
• Military and financial assistance by one Ally to another, specifically to support the defence effort of the recipient, should be included in the defence expenditure of the donor nation and not in that of the recipient.

 

[lenaitch]

As I understand it NATO does it's own accounting based on its own standards, so while countries will undoubtedly play games with their spending there exists the opportunity for Canada to say 'look, we spent 2%' and NATO to say 'you absolutely did not, the union employees counting polar bears in the arctic don't count'.



Black berets, operate tanks landships, or would if they had them. I think the path forward for army modernization and to improve our 'jointness' is clear. The RCAC merges with the RCN as a joint force, so RCDs can crew RCDs, alleviating the crewing problem for the new seatanks until new landships are bought.



Uniformed military service that deploys on expeditionary operations, and even maintains a permanent overseas. It's ships are not only armed with a deck gun, but also carry sensors and self defence systems akin to warships such as EW, decoys, and previously were armed with more capable weapons like Harpoon missiles. Here's an article about a recent RIMPAC where a USCG cutter embarked a navy helicopter to do ASW missions and provided naval gunfire support. They can and do a lot of lower end security tasks, and did so through things like the Iraq war. It's like navy defence and security tasks combined with policing, with the ability to fit out for higher end war time roles vs the CCG which does science, aid to navigation, SAR, and carries police dets for local policing.

Re: Gendarmerie vs RCMP - the gendarmerie is quite large, I wonder how much of their budget actually counts as defence spending.

The USCG is basically divided into three fleets. The White Fleet is the patrol/national security/interdiction/SAR fleet that is the most heavily armed. The Black Fleet handles aids to navigation, harbour and inland icebreaking and is the closest comparator to our CG. I don't know if any have mounted weapons. The Red Fleet is their heavy icebreaking fleet. Obviously there will be some cross-over depending on circumstances.

I don't know how much of the USCG's budget is counted towards their NATO contribution. It would seem odd that ships that never leave the Great Lakes would be counted against NATO.

 

[PuckChaser]

Long article but interesting note at the end about Japan inquiring about new C17 production line. We could sweeten that pot with 3 or 4 more airframes to give depth to our strat fleet.

Exclusive: Boeing Ready to Restart U.S. C-17 Military Transport Aircraft Production Following Japan Interest

Exclusive: Boeing Ready to Restart U.S. C-17 Military Transport Aircraft Production Following Japan Interest

armyrecognition.com

 

[Maxman1]

Make it 5 or 10.