• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

Here's to hoping. The army needs some major love these days.
I think you can change that to the CAF, and also roll in infra. We could probably add some fractions of a percent just remediating things like mold, asbestos, lead and other contaminants in CAF buildings as well as fixing leaking roofs, base water mains, power distribution, roads and other unsexy things.
 
Maybe the PS gets a pay increase and we'll be told to wait out since ours is "in the works".
That could happen and has. Although last time they risk managed it and gave the CAF its raise before négociations were done with the caveat that if the PS got more they would increase it to match.

If I recall they ended up with slightly more than what the PS got. Like within .5 percent.
 
No one lost it, but some trades like the firefighters continue to not qualify for it, which is a bit baffling, especially as they'd still make less then their DND civilian FF equivalents doing the same job (while working less hours without having to deploy) even if they were spec 2. The spec pay system is generally obscure and mysterious so probably the worst way you can set up a system to have extra pay increments for people with specialized training. That's why their attrition rate is pretty high and lot of people are going to city, base or airport firehalls once they are qualified.

Real talk, the CAF FF trade should probably just fold up shop. It's a dead trade, and it's loss of positions in HMC Ships was the nail on the coffin, that's just IMHO.
 
You forgot them. The government isn't going to drop a 10% pay increase to the CAF and not have to follow suite with the public service.

Besides DND and PSPC are going to have to hire all those new Project Managers and their secretaries assistants.
 
Paved roads to the north alone would cost a small fortune
Paved is a bad idea north of the 55th. It would fall apart from freeze/thaw and require more than annual maintenance.
For a 4 season 4 lane highway gravel is easily maintained and much cheaper to build although still an expensive proposition. A lot of the dollars would be eaten up with hundreds of creek and river crossings.
 
Real talk, the CAF FF trade should probably just fold up shop. It's a dead trade, and it's loss of positions in HMC Ships was the nail on the coffin, that's just IMHO.
The reason they haven't is because they deploy with airfields, and at the moment they can't do that in high threat areas with civilians.

The army and navy bases have converted over to DND halls, but they make about 20-30% more (and there are more of them) doing the exact same job, with the exact same qualifications, while also having more people (4 shifts vice 3), and will get compensation like OT when they cover off for someone.

There are private contractors that will cover off a lot of the deployed ops, at truly eye watering costs, but that's why the trade still exists. They will also surge to places like Alert, Inuvik etc, and again could contract it out, but it's about 3 times the cost of SWE, with far less operational flexibility.

I agree, long term it doesn't seem sustainable but at least it's an RCAF trade so supports their operational requirement.

I was sad when they left the ships personally, and enjoy working with them at the moment in my purple job.
 
Paved is a bad idea north of the 55th. It would fall apart from freeze/thaw and require more than annual maintenance.
For a 4 season 4 lane highway gravel is easily maintained and much cheaper to build although still an expensive proposition. A lot of the dollars would be eaten up with hundreds of creek and river crossings.
You can pave, or concrete - but to make a resilient road, the bedding needs to be crazy deep and stable - which is going to be more expensive than making a crappy road every second year or so for 20-30 years. Corps of Engineers has done a lot roadwork in Alaska, and those roads are built to last - and I shudder to consider the costs.
I would agree with you that for most applications that gravel would be more practical.
 
You can pave, or concrete - but to make a resilient road, the bedding needs to be crazy deep and stable - which is going to be more expensive than making a crappy road every second year or so for 20-30 years. Corps of Engineers has done a lot roadwork in Alaska, and those roads are built to last - and I shudder to consider the costs.
I would agree with you that for most applications that gravel would be more practical.
I mean the Alaska highway was considered a mega project in the 40s. The oerma frost made it hell to dig, we would encounter the same issue unless you dug really really deep
 
The reason they haven't is because they deploy with airfields, and at the moment they can't do that in high threat areas with civilians.

The army and navy bases have converted over to DND halls, but they make about 20-30% more (and there are more of them) doing the exact same job, with the exact same qualifications, while also having more people (4 shifts vice 3), and will get compensation like OT when they cover off for someone.

There are private contractors that will cover off a lot of the deployed ops, at truly eye watering costs, but that's why the trade still exists. They will also surge to places like Alert, Inuvik etc, and again could contract it out, but it's about 3 times the cost of SWE, with far less operational flexibility.

I agree, long term it doesn't seem sustainable but at least it's an RCAF trade so supports their operational requirement.

I was sad when they left the ships personally, and enjoy working with them at the moment in my purple job.

I don't remember any CAF FFs at KAF but I will admit I didn't see everything and I wasn't there a big ton. So I am willing to be educated.

How many were on Impact ?

I'm indifferent on them having left the ships. We've gotten over it IMHO.
 
I don't remember any CAF FFs at KAF but I will admit I didn't see everything and I wasn't there a big ton. So I am willing to be educated.

How many were on Impact ?

I'm indifferent on them having left the ships. We've gotten over it IMHO.
I don't trust the senior leadership of the RCN and their acceptance of risk they don't understand to remove FFs from ships.
 

Bravo! When can we start ordering the new berets? ;)


France Kiss GIF by Robert E Blackmon
 
I don't remember any CAF FFs at KAF but I will admit I didn't see everything and I wasn't there a big ton. So I am willing to be educated.

How many were on Impact ?

I'm indifferent on them having left the ships. We've gotten over it IMHO.
They serve a few functions; one is for crash rescue, and (from what I understand) is more for fixed wing when deployed, so things like CF18s, hercs, C17s etc. They were places like Kuwait etc as well as fun spots like Alert.

The other part is group fire marshalls for the camps, so they are spots like Latvia, Iraq, Europe and a few other spots around the globe where we have people. Given the really dumb things they find regularly, as well as the occasional fire they respond to, that's a good preventative and first response measure. They also do some of the fire safety review for camps, buildings and other semi-permanent and permanent buildings so that's a plans examiner/inspector role.

Generating people to do that thing means they need spots on bases to do that, but the trade has shed too many billets to sustain ops plus the actual FD roles so they are on a 1 in 3 duty rotation (vs 1 in 4). With the way it's setup and how some bases are interpreting the leave policy manual, they get dicked over on things like leave (needing 2 days annual to take one shift off).

The RCN inital mitigation of losing FFs expertise was training up HTs to take over that role, which we didn't really do fully, then we fucked that plan by getting rid of HTs. There is a lot of maintenance on basic FF equipment (hoses, nozzles, extinguishers, bunker gear etc) that didn't really have a comprehensive PM plan, but was done by the FFs as part of their routine, and by HTs that were trained by them when they did HCRFF, but that fell into a black hole so took a lot of work to get that kind of sorted out. Still regularly find expired bunker gear (has a lifespan), expired extinguishers (hoses, etc have a lifespan and they need regular inspections so they don't rust out and kill people when used), nozzles that dont' work, eductors that don't work etc.

Off the top of my head can think of two fire responses in recent memory where the nozzles either didn't work at all, or weren't picking up foam, and delayed getting water on. Fortunately they checked it first before getting too close, so training works, but still not good situation.

The other obvious impact is the number of avoidable fires from hot work gone wrong has really skyrocketed, and now routinely have one or two a month, which given the size of our fleet is pretty shit, and at least a few million dollars in damages and multiple people exposed to smoke inhalation during the response.

So yeah, there has been an impact, and it hasn't been good.

The other fun bit is the last few FFs with sea time are coming up on retirement, and we a dwindling number of experienced legacy HTs that got into the Snr HT position, while trying to come up with DC response plans for JSS and SOPs for RCD. At least with RCD, we can start with the RN, but they have higher FF training (and HTs) so their plans may not work for our crew composition and training levels.

Regularly hear navy people trying to come up with FF tactics, while not understanding the fundamentals behind it, but having misplaced confidence that they do, so lot of wasted time and effort in fixing that, and occasionally a 'good idea' that is actually dangerous or dumb gets a lot farther then it should.
 
They serve a few functions; one is for crash rescue, and (from what I understand) is more for fixed wing when deployed, so things like CF18s, hercs, C17s etc. They were places like Kuwait etc as well as fun spots like Alert.

The other part is group fire marshalls for the camps, so they are spots like Latvia, Iraq, Europe and a few other spots around the globe where we have people. Given the really dumb things they find regularly, as well as the occasional fire they respond to, that's a good preventative and first response measure. They also do some of the fire safety review for camps, buildings and other semi-permanent and permanent buildings so that's a plans examiner/inspector role.

Generating people to do that thing means they need spots on bases to do that, but the trade has shed too many billets to sustain ops plus the actual FD roles so they are on a 1 in 3 duty rotation (vs 1 in 4). With the way it's setup and how some bases are interpreting the leave policy manual, they get dicked over on things like leave (needing 2 days annual to take one shift off).

The RCN inital mitigation of losing FFs expertise was training up HTs to take over that role, which we didn't really do fully, then we fucked that plan by getting rid of HTs. There is a lot of maintenance on basic FF equipment (hoses, nozzles, extinguishers, bunker gear etc) that didn't really have a comprehensive PM plan, but was done by the FFs as part of their routine, and by HTs that were trained by them when they did HCRFF, but that fell into a black hole so took a lot of work to get that kind of sorted out. Still regularly find expired bunker gear (has a lifespan), expired extinguishers (hoses, etc have a lifespan and they need regular inspections so they don't rust out and kill people when used), nozzles that dont' work, eductors that don't work etc.

Off the top of my head can think of two fire responses in recent memory where the nozzles either didn't work at all, or weren't picking up foam, and delayed getting water on. Fortunately they checked it first before getting too close, so training works, but still not good situation.

The other obvious impact is the number of avoidable fires from hot work gone wrong has really skyrocketed, and now routinely have one or two a month, which given the size of our fleet is pretty shit, and at least a few million dollars in damages and multiple people exposed to smoke inhalation during the response.

So yeah, there has been an impact, and it hasn't been good.

The other fun bit is the last few FFs with sea time are coming up on retirement, and we a dwindling number of experienced legacy HTs that got into the Snr HT position, while trying to come up with DC response plans for JSS and SOPs for RCD. At least with RCD, we can start with the RN, but they have higher FF training (and HTs) so their plans may not work for our crew composition and training levels.

Regularly hear navy people trying to come up with FF tactics, while not understanding the fundamentals behind it, but having misplaced confidence that they do, so lot of wasted time and effort in fixing that, and occasionally a 'good idea' that is actually dangerous or dumb gets a lot farther then it should.

Its interesting how deck plates and 6th floor HQ can see such different pictures. (Not actually sure what floor your on but if your deck plate time was in HFX you might get the reference).

I have experienced nothing nor heard tell of any of your information and I sit with Snr MARTECH Structures (HTs) every day where DC and this very topic has been discussed in C&POs. What does come up is the loss of the HT expertise and their SMEness in DC, I think this is the bigger issue. But with RAT and HCFR now built into the TPs I think we have overcome this.
 
Last edited:
Its interesting how deck plates and 6th floor HQ can see such different pictures. (Not actually sure what floor your on but if your deck plate time was in HFX you might get the reference).

I have experienced nothing nor heard tell of any of your information and I sit with Snr MARTECH Structures (HTs) every day where DC and this very topic has been discussed in C&POs. What does come up is the loss of the HT expertise and their SMEness in DC, I think this is the bigger issue. But with RAT and HCFR now built into the TPs I think we have overcome this.
Ok, enuff I'M Army your abbns are a mystery, pls simplify!
 
The CAF, and the RCAF in particular, need to accept that CAF FF are really just an expensive, but necessary, insurance policy. I have had FF work for me on two different Wings, and in Alert. What they can provide in an emergency is a critical requirement. There is no argument there. They are a relatively small trade (although are at about 103% PML currently), spread across too many Wings, and therefore deployments add up quickly, but no more than several other Construction Engineering trades.

However, take all the complaining about not getting equal pay, getting screwed on leave, etc, etc with a grain of salt. While they have equivalent, and in most cases, because they are also airfield qualified, higher training levels than local fire halls, that is where the comparisons end. Their call volume is a fraction of most full time firehalls, and they respond to real fires an even smaller fraction than that. Most calls on Wings are either for false alarms, or responding as first responders/paramedics.

And don't get me started on DND FF. Except for those filling inspector roles, and policy positions, they are overpaid for the actual amount of work they have to do, and calls they need to respond to. And they are constantly tainting uniformed FFs with how they are being screwed, right out of the schoolhouse.
 
Back
Top