Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[WestIsle]

We tried integrating civilian police - the Dominion Police - with military in World War I and it didn't work then.

Dominion Police were extremely small force that only resided in Ottawa. The RCMP had no issues during both world wars and the Boer War the later of which had many members in the LSR.

 

[brihard]

Postings to a base detachment would be a pretty chill gig and is the kinda small town policing a lot of members strive for. The force is also used to running detachments in all sizes so it fits like a glove in that case. It would be more expensive from the wage side but the CAF wouldnt have to pay to try and run its own police force which can be very expensive for all the background things. The only thing is that you probably want the members to be more like the tactical troop then GD background wise.

Oh, for sure RCMP could absorb the role relatively easily in terms of “here are new detachments”. That periodically has happened as small civilian services have been absorbed. I’m just saying that CAF would lose a fair bit of ability to force any management of HR stuff, and, say, Petawawa or Shilo or Ottawa detachments would compete with everywhere else. In some cases, existing RCMP detachments would just stretch their existing map slightly- Cold Lake, Esquimault, Yellowknife etc. At least while contract policing remains a thing.

There would be some CAF peculiarities to get used to, but also probably a bunch of MPs would jump ship which would help.

You’re right that latching on to the economies of scale the RCMP officers would help somewhat to offset the increased HR costs.

 

[dapaterson]

But if the CAF replaced the MPs with real police, who would defend bases from raccoons?

 

[McG]

We'd be better off with a beefed up Corps of Commissionaires rather than using 'real police' for those tasks.

Why is everything boiled down to a false binary? We don’t need police for every CAF security requirement, but a old watchman with no capacity to use force is the wrong answer for security on bases. Maybe we create a security force with peace officer but not police officer status?

 

[brihard]

But if the CAF replaced the MPs with real police, who would defend bases from raccoons?

Ottawa Police are qualified up to Moose.

 

[dapaterson]

Ottawa Police are qualified up to Moose.

But what about squirrel?

 

[WestIsle]

Oh, for sure RCMP could absorb the role relatively easily in terms of “here are new detachments”. That periodically has happened as small civilian services have been absorbed. I’m just saying that CAF would lose a fair bit of ability to force any management of HR stuff, and, say, Petawawa or Shilo or Ottawa detachments would compete with everywhere else. In some cases, existing RCMP detachments would just stretch their existing map slightly- Cold Lake, Esquimault, Yellowknife etc. At least while contract policing remains a thing.

There would be some CAF peculiarities to get used to, but also probably a bunch of MPs would jump ship which would help.

You’re right that latching on to the economies of scale the RCMP officers would help somewhat to offset the increased HR costs.

I dont think it would look like that. More likely they would create a new Division within the RCMP for DND policing. This would include things like major investigative services (CFNIS), etc. Detachments would interact with provincial ones for things like regional training like they do out West where everyone but BC folks go back to Depot for regular member training.

There is real appetite in most RCMP divisions for cross training with the military and ERT has apparently repaired their relationship with the hill so between that and what is a decent posting in what can be a small to medium sized town imagine the force would be down.

....the real issue though is which style of salute gets adopted

 

[daftandbarmy]

....the real issue though is which style of salute gets adopted

Well, the correct answer is 'the proper way' of course

 

[Eaglelord17]

Well, the correct answer is 'the proper way' of course

I see you have chosen the Navy salute

 

[Maxman1]

Dominion Police were extremely small force that only resided in Ottawa. The RCMP had no issues during both world wars and the Boer War the later of which had many members in the LSR.

The RCMP was established in 1920, as a merger of the Dominion Police and the Royal Northwest Mounted Police.

The NWMP was not deployed in the Second Boer War, but large numbers of officers were granted leave to volunteer for the military (which had knock-on effects of depleted manpower in policing the Klondike Gold Rush), and in World War I they raised a cavalry draft for frontline service in 1918, with members again formally on leave of absence and sworn into the military, which was broken up to provide reinforcements to deployed units; in both conflicts they didn't perform policing duties. They also had a variety of wartime national security duties added to the service within Canada, which, due to manpower shortages indirectly led to the founding of several provincial police forces.

In World War II, as the Canadian Army lacked any form of military police, volunteers from the RCMP formed 1 Provost Company in 1939, which was expanded into the Canadian Provost Corps in 1940. The RCMP did not directly provide policing for the military, but did establish the military police corps.

 

[lenaitch]

Postings to a base detachment would be a pretty chill gig and is the kinda small town policing a lot of members strive for. The force is also used to running detachments in all sizes so it fits like a glove in that case. It would be more expensive from the wage side but the CAF wouldnt have to pay to try and run its own police force which can be very expensive for all the background things. The only thing is that you probably want the members to be more like the tactical troop then GD background wise.

Or bored to tears on a small base, just like the MPs likely currently are.

For any 'base detachment', you need the range; criminal investigators for benchmark incidents (however defined), patrol members to do traffic, domestics, drunks, etc. plus the local command structure, specialty teams (either on site or not far away). If you want things like door rattles, key/pass control, gate control, you might want to keep the Commissionaires.

 

[brihard]

I dont think it would look like that. More likely they would create a new Division within the RCMP for DND policing. This would include things like major investigative services (CFNIS), etc. Detachments would interact with provincial ones for things like regional training like they do out West where everyone but BC folks go back to Depot for regular member training.

There is real appetite in most RCMP divisions for cross training with the military and ERT has apparently repaired their relationship with the hill so between that and what is a decent posting in what can be a small to medium sized town imagine the force would be down.

....the real issue though is which style of salute gets adopted

No way it would merit a separate RCMP division. It would simply be new contract policing detachments, or slight extension of the jurisdiction of existing ones.

IMO, actual front line policing on the bases, if not by a dedicated CAF/DND police service, should simply be provided by whoever provides the policing as soon as you take a step outside of the gate. Petawawa? OPP. NDHQ? Ottawa Police. Esquimault? West Shore RCMP detachment. Cold Lake? Cold Lake RCMP. The peculiarities of policing a base just aren’t that significant; none of these would likely add substantial call volume; most of the dumb stunts are probably happening off base as it is anyway.

Someone mentioned Ontario and Quebec. RCMP don’t do municipal policing there. Quite a number of very small and probably super boring RCMP detachments would need to be established. Also in the case of Ontario, RCMP don’t have provincial statute authority such as Mental Health Act or Liquor Act…That’s a shortcoming, unless remedied by the municipal or provincial police granting them special constable status. That’s clumsy.

For the small portion of police investigative files that could not be cleanly handled by local police of jurisdiction, say alleged criminality overseas by a CAF member, probably those could be handled within the workload of some appropriate RCMP unit. The Mounties already do a fair bit of international stuff anyway and do travel as needed for investigations. I don’t think that would be a barrier.

I definitely don’t see a wholesale transfer of frontline policing of CFBs to RCMP making sense.

Personally I think CAF should do a blank slate thought exercise of all policing and security/force protection roles currently performed by MPs or hired security, and do a task bank analysis to determine the right combination of organizations and allocation of duties to handle it. Maybe that still lands on a CAF MPs, maybe a DND civilian police service, and maybe also separate armed force protection security like the nuclear plants or Parliament Hill or a few oddball federal agencies have. And of course a smattering of wheezing commissionaires.

 

[lenaitch]

Someone mentioned Ontario and Quebec. RCMP don’t do municipal policing there. Quite a number of very small and probably super boring RCMP detachments would need to be established. Also in the case of Ontario, RCMP don’t have provincial statute authority such as Mental Health Act or Liquor Act…That’s a shortcoming, unless remedied by the municipal or provincial police granting them special constable status. That’s clumsy.

Local law enforcement would have to be somehow empowered under the DND traffic regulations and anything else specific to federal/DND property.

Then there is the matter of who pays for it and how the province or local municipality collects, and we've been around that on here before.

 

[WestIsle]

No way it would merit a separate RCMP division. It would simply be new contract policing detachments, or slight extension of the jurisdiction of existing ones.

IMO, actual front line policing on the bases, if not by a dedicated CAF/DND police service, should simply be provided by whoever provides the policing as soon as you take a step outside of the gate. Petawawa? OPP. NDHQ? Ottawa Police. Esquimault? West Shore RCMP detachment. Cold Lake? Cold Lake RCMP. The peculiarities of policing a base just aren’t that significant; none of these would likely add substantial call volume; most of the dumb stunts are probably happening off base as it is anyway.

Someone mentioned Ontario and Quebec. RCMP don’t do municipal policing there. Quite a number of very small and probably super boring RCMP detachments would need to be established. Also in the case of Ontario, RCMP don’t have provincial statute authority such as Mental Health Act or Liquor Act…That’s a shortcoming, unless remedied by the municipal or provincial police granting them special constable status. That’s clumsy.

For the small portion of police investigative files that could not be cleanly handled by local police of jurisdiction, say alleged criminality overseas by a CAF member, probably those could be handled within the workload of some appropriate RCMP unit. The Mounties already do a fair bit of international stuff anyway and do travel as needed for investigations. I don’t think that would be a barrier.

I definitely don’t see a wholesale transfer of frontline policing of CFBs to RCMP making sense.

Personally I think CAF should do a blank slate thought exercise of all policing and security/force protection roles currently performed by MPs or hired security, and do a task bank analysis to determine the right combination of organizations and allocation of duties to handle it. Maybe that still lands on a CAF MPs, maybe a DND civilian police service, and maybe also separate armed force protection security like the nuclear plants or Parliament Hill or a few oddball federal agencies have. And of course a smattering of wheezing commissionaires.

Every province and territory is division of which V Division (Nunavut) has about 150 members posted to it. The number of police required for the CAF and its facilities would well exceed this number.

The problem with relying on an outside police force that isnt dedicated to your jurisdiction is that there is no guarantee they will treat calls to the base as being the same priority if not higher then local calls. Just look at an example of a place you mentioned Esquimalt. They moved from having their own police to having Victoria police them. Victoria stopped responding to low priority calls to the area and focused resources on the Victoria downtown. That is also to say nothing about the drama of local politics that often consumes many municipal police forces.

RCMP has a limited presence in Ontario and Quebec but it does include GD on reserves there when applicable. They are grower however as more members are being placed on the border. Im not aware that RCMP are lacking provincial statute authority there such as Mental Health Act or Liquor Act but that doesnt seem like anything other then a short term issue that can be fixed in short order.

At the end of the day the goal of shifting to the RCMP for policing on bases is to not try to create a subpar national police force while also letting military personnel focus on..... well military affairs. Anything else just gets us back to our current predicament. As per relying on the Commissionaires.... well even the RCMP are having to revaluate their use at places like Depot.

 

[WestIsle]

Local law enforcement would have to be somehow empowered under the DND traffic regulations and anything else specific to federal/DND property.

Then there is the matter of who pays for it and how the province or local municipality collects, and we've been around that on here before.

Federal to Municipal seems to be less an issue then Municipal to Federal as the content and quality of regional training varies across the country. That is to make no mention of local hiring practices and their ability to conduct screenings of their workers.

 

[Furniture]

Or bored to tears on a small base, just like the MPs likely currently are.

I suspect you've hit a key issue facing most police forces right now. Most of our highly educated police officers view themselves as above routine patrol work. They want to do the high-speed stuff, and don't want to be "stuck" doing routine things like traffic or other patrol duties.

Maybe we need a multi-tiered policing system, that employs people who are happy being the patrol cops, as well as those who aspire to be the next real world Sherlock.

Or we can keep doing what we are doing, failing to recruit and retain enough people, and pretend that it's fine... What could go wrong when the average citizen realizes that the police aren't coming, and don't care?

 

[brihard]

Every province and territory is division of which V Division (Nunavut) has about 150 members posted to it. The number of police required for the CAF and its facilities would well exceed this number.

Yes, RCMP has some small decisions. M/G/V/L in particular. Each has a coherent geographical reason to exist as a standalone division.

Ontario and Quebec no longer have their own specific RCMP divisions. Federal policing has been restructured into regions, and O and C divisions are no more.

The problem with relying on an outside police force that isnt dedicated to your jurisdiction is that there is no guarantee they will treat calls to the base as being the same priority if not higher then local calls. Just look at an example of a place you mentioned Esquimalt. They moved from having their own police to having Victoria police them. Victoria stopped responding to low priority calls to the area and focused resources on the Victoria downtown. That is also to say nothing about the drama of local politics that often consumes many municipal police forces.

This is why there’s a case for a DND-run police service whether CAF or civilian. CAF bases could potentially be given a small dedicated team, similar to what we see with police assigned to, say, airports. This could put a couple people constantly ‘on site’, able to surge more if needed, but that would be a service and funding agreement.

RCMP has a limited presence in Ontario and Quebec but it does include GD on reserves there when applicable. They are grower however as more members are being placed on the border. Im not aware that RCMP are lacking provincial statute authority there such as Mental Health Act or Liquor Act but that doesnt seem like anything other then a short term issue that can be fixed in short order.

There are more RCMP in Wuebec and Ontario than you realize I think, but none of them are doing GD on reserves. There’s no GD presence in either province. There’s some uniformed border work being done and anecdotally I’ve heard of them backing up local police or OPP in Cornwall is something goes hinky, there are also uniformed RCMP doing protective work in Ottawa, plus a tiny traffic section for National Capital Commission parkways (for now)… But there’s no GD infrastructure or GD-focused command structure to piggyback off of for hypothetical RCMP CFB detachments in Ottawa, Kingston, Trenton, Toronto, Petawawa, Dwyer Hill, Meaford, Borden, Montreal, Quebec City, Valcartier, Bagotville etc.

You would think the provincial states thing is an easy fix yet for decades it has remained an issue.

At the end of the day the goal of shifting to the RCMP for policing on bases is to not try to create a subpar national police force while also letting military personnel focus on..... well military affairs. Anything else just gets us back to our current predicament. As per relying on the Commissionaires.... well even the RCMP are having to revaluate their use at places like Depot.

Bases need a lot of security and a little bit of policing. The ratio and prudery of this warrant reassessment. I think the bases need a lot more security focused guys with guns ready to respond to a force protection threat. As I suggested, like Parliament or the nuclear plants. There’s not a lot of need to have police trying to find police work to make up their time.

I suspect you've hit a key issue facing most police forces right now. Most of our highly educated police officers view themselves as above routine patrol work. They want to do the high-speed stuff, and don't want to be "stuck" doing routine things like traffic or other patrol duties.

Respectfully disagreed. Front line police are very used to patrolling and taking very minor calls, it’s most of the job. No issue there; there isn’t a lot of what could be described as ‘high speed’. But security patrolling is a different, if related, beast. Plenty of police would be happy to have a break and rotate through some super sleepy detachments for a couple years, although you might not see as many running radar at Carling to catch drivers going 35 out the exit driveway. The odd drunk driver leaving the mess or a domestic in the PMQs is well within what any could deal with.

Maybe we need a multi-tiered policing system, that employs people who are happy being the patrol cops, as well as those who aspire to be the next real world Sherlock.

Or we can keep doing what we are doing, failing to recruit and retain enough people, and pretend that it's fine... What could go wrong when the average citizen realizes that the police aren't coming, and don't care?

I simply think security patrols doesn’t have to be conventional police. But this brings us full circle into a force protection thread again.

 

[ueo]

Why is everything boiled down to a false binary? We don’t need police for every CAF security requirement, but a old watchman with no capacity to use force is the wrong answer for security on bases. Maybe we create a security force with peace officer but not police officer status?

Security on bases? Most are as secure as a MAcie drive through!

 

[Halifax Tar]

The RCN is going to have to come to terms with the need for actual security, probably uniformed, if we get AEGIS systems. That's going to change the whole ball game.

 

[KTown Cowboy]

The RCN is going to have to come to terms with the need for actual security, probably uniformed, if we get AEGIS systems. That's going to change the whole ball game.

I did Force Protection at CFB Halifax for 7 years on a Class "C" from 2005-2012, when they decided it cost to much to maintain and the thereat level didn't require a full time standing force to do gate duty and water borne patrolling.

This Infantryman got some fun boat courses doing that.