Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC

[YZT580]

Why?

Have you seen the range available on our Chinook or the MV-75? Also, our Hercs train ALARP anyway. Rotary Wing AAR isn't strictly necessary.

Yes I have and both start to run out of gas around 500 nm and, at least for the Chinook they come with inflight refuel capability. Why limit yourself? The concept of using unmanned capabilities is great but I haven't heard of that being pursued by our forces yet and when/if we do how will that work in a hot environment? As for setting up a forward refueling zone, the one scenario I recall was a less than spectacular attempt by the USAF into Iran. It is always and I emphasize always worthwhile to have an alternative and the herc makes a great mother ship. Also useable elsewhere when this capability is not required. Just asking as an interested civilian.

 

[Good2Golf]

Yes I have and both start to run out of gas around 500 nm and, at least for the Chinook they come with inflight refuel capability. Why limit yourself? The concept of using unmanned capabilities is great but I haven't heard of that being pursued by our forces yet and when/if we do how will that work in a hot environment? As for setting up a forward refueling zone, the one scenario I recall was a less than spectacular attempt by the USAF into Iran. It is always and I emphasize always worthwhile to have an alternative and the herc makes a great mother ship. Also useable elsewhere when this capability is not required. Just asking as an interested civilian.

Define “start to run out.” Publicly available Chinook specifications conservatively place operational range (which doesn’t include fuel reserves) in the 600s-700s of nm (1200+ km). Do you mean range when you only fill the tanks 2/3 full?

 

[ytz]

Why limit yourself?

Cause money and (especially) people don't grow on trees. Every capability we add is vetted against the reality of being short people and/or increasing technical or logistics burden.

Given that the CA doesn't generally do covert long range air assault, it's questionable value to enable RW AAR for us which would be a major effort having to retrofit all the helos and then fit out refuelling pods on the Js.

 

[dapaterson]

I know the Hawk rumours. And they were credible. But all of that is up in the air with the DIS.

I don't think people outside fully grasp the impact of the DIS.

I don't think people inside fully grasp it either.

The writing has been on the wall for months, yet many PMOs have assumed "we'll do a nat sec exemption and go FMS" as their sole COA.

Shades of the very early days of FFCP (2012 or so?) when the RCAF fighter mafia, having seen the Herc J, C17 and Chinook acquisitions go like shit through a goose, made not every the slightest effort in their bid to go all in on JSF, declaring everything to be low risk.

 

[ytz]

Define “start to run out.” Publicly available Chinook specifications conservatively place operational range (which doesn’t include fuel reserves) in the 600s-700s of nm (1200+ km). Do you mean range when you only fill the tanks 2/3 full?

With the fat tanks we got on our Chinooks the range is in the ballpark you mention. Exactly why the RCAF wants more of them. It's a helo that can reach the Arctic in one crew day with one stop.

As for setting up a forward refueling zone, the one scenario I recall was a less than spectacular attempt by the USAF into Iran.

If you're Tac Hel, have you never done ALARP?

 

[ytz]

MV-75 has some frankly ridiculous specifications and will be a monstrously capable aircraft if it can fulfill its promises, to the point it truly is a game changer for anybody who operates it. That being said, I am inherently skeptical about its capabilities until proven otherwise in service however.

It did so well in trials that the IOC moved up. Quite frankly, I'm shocked that Bell assembling this in Montreal is an option. No brainer if it is. A big part of why our Cginooks came with fat tanks is Domops, especially Arctic. An MV-75 could launch Pet and reach anywhere in the country in an extended crew day with a stop. Theoretically could get from Pet to Alert in 9 hrs with a brief gas stop. Treating this like Griffon Tac Hel would be dumb.

 

[ytz]

I don't think people inside fully grasp it either.

The writing has been on the wall for months, yet many PMOs have assumed "we'll do a nat sec exemption and go FMS" as their sole COA.

Shades of the very early days of FFCP (2012 or so?) when the RCAF fighter mafia, having seen the Herc J, C17 and Chinook acquisitions go like shit through a goose, made not every the slightest effort in their bid to go all in on JSF, declaring everything to be low risk.

Fait point. But the DIS wasn't out before. Now it is.

You're right. Anybody who's smart was planning ahead. We started making two decks for our project a few months back. Just in case. But I guess there's a lot of people that were willing to bet they'd get a pass.

Also, weird mixed messages from the government. LRF went through with HIMARS just a few months ago. I think the risk of being directed to buy Canadian is exceptionally high if there's an OEM willing to make your thing in Canada.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Also, weird mixed messages from the government. LRF went through with HIMARS just a few months ago. I think the risk of being directed to buy Canadian is exceptionally high if there's an OEM willing to make your thing in Canada.

There is already rumours about Chunmoo being considered as a backup to HIMARS recently.

 

[Czech_pivo]

There is already rumours about Chunmoo being considered as a backup to HIMARS recently.

It HIMARS doesn’t happen, Carney should announce the same day a contract for Chunmoo’s. Don’t even wait a single day, just announce the Chunmoo’s with no fanfare and no delay.

 

[GR66]

Stick with HIMARS. Fitting in a C-130J is a key capability for Canada. However, open a plant to build rockets and missiles here.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Stick with HIMARS. Fitting in a C-130J is a key capability for Canada. However, open a plant to build rockets and missiles here.

Is it a key capability for Canada? Or was it seen as key capability for the Canadian Army locked into the decades long mindset of interservice rivalry/ fighting for relevance of mission?

A bit of a leading question, but one I think needs to be asked and considered at the CDS level. Is the focus on a divisional asset for the conventional peer fight or adding another arrow to the sovereignty quiver?

 

[GR66]

Is it a key capability for Canada? Or was it seen as key capability for the Canadian Army locked into the decades long mindset of interservice rivalry/ fighting for relevance of mission?

If you want to get a ground-based missile launch capability to either the coasts or the Arctic quickly then it is a key capability. I'm of the opinion that as much military capability as possible/logical should be able to be rapidly deployed by air anywhere in Canada.

 

[suffolkowner]

If you want to get a ground-based missile launch capability to either the coasts or the Arctic quickly then it is a key capability. I'm of the opinion that as much military capability as possible/logical should be able to be rapidly deployed by air anywhere in Canada.

Chunmoo is supposed to be coming as a single pod as well

 

[dapaterson]

Stick with HIMARS. Fitting in a C-130J is a key capability for Canada. However, open a plant to build rockets and missiles here.

Getting ourselves far away from reliance on the USA is a key capability for Canada.

Buy the SK alternative. If that means we scrap the Herc Js for A400s then so be it as well.

The USA is not a friend. It is not an ally. It is not to be trusted. As soon as CAF GOFOs get that through their skulls we can progress.

 

[Infanteer]

The USA is not a friend. It is not an ally. It is not to be trusted. As soon as CAF GOFOs get that through their skulls we can progress.

I think those things called NORAD and NATO would say otherwise.

 

[IKnowNothing]

If you want to get a ground-based missile launch capability to either the coasts or the Arctic quickly then it is a key capability. I'm of the opinion that as much military capability as possible/logical should be able to be rapidly deployed by air anywhere in Canada.

Big IF, and too broad of basket.

A. Do we want/ need to, or are missile effects for the defense of the nation/soveriegnty going to be more effectively brought into play by aircraft and naval vessels?

B. If we do/want need to- does it need to be/ should it be the same platform as our divisional fires asset? There are lighter, more logistically friendly coastal missile options (Strikemaster). There are heavier, higher payload divisional assets (Chunmoo).

C. Or maaayyybe is it about situating the estimate because the Army wants PrSM? (Which it might be entirely justified in, it seems pretty damn awesome- but just come out and make the case for it)

 

[dapaterson]

I think those things called NORAD and NATO would say otherwise.

Doesn't demonstrate friendship.

Doesn't demonstrate trustworthiness.

NATO and NORAD show that there are words on paper - and POTUS has amply demonstrated that he doesn't feel bound by such commitments, and Congress have abdicated their role in government.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Stick with HIMARS. Fitting in a C-130J is a key capability for Canada. However, open a plant to build rockets and missiles here.

C-17 be like...

 

[suffolkowner]

I think those things called NORAD and NATO would say otherwise.

Are we sure the US is in NATO anymore?

Big IF, and too broad of basket.

A. Do we want/ need to, or are missile effects for the defense of the nation/soveriegnty going to be more effectively brought into play by aircraft and naval vessels?

B. If we do/want need to- does it need to be/ should it be the same platform as our divisional fires asset? There are lighter, more logistically friendly coastal missile options (Strikemaster). There are heavier, higher payload divisional assets (Chunmoo).

C. Or maaayyybe is it about situating the estimate because the Army wants PrSM? (Which it might be entirely justified in, it seems pretty damn awesome- but just come out and make the case for it)

C130 flies to ALERT unloads HIMARS, fires salvo. Reloads HIMARS flies away. Seems questionable on a number of basis

 

[Infanteer]

Doesn't demonstrate friendship.

Doesn't demonstrate trustworthiness.

NATO and NORAD show that there are words on paper - and POTUS has amply demonstrated that he doesn't feel bound by such commitments, and Congress have abdicated their role in government.

We got over the War of 1812 and 54'40'' or fight. I'm sure we'll get over MAGA.