Depends on what conflict and what role we're designing for.
Canada moves to 2% GDP end of FY25/26 - PMMC
- Thread starter Maxman1
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Depends on what conflict and what role we're designing for.
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A couple of updates on Canadian defence related news:
defence-industry.eu
defence-industry.eu
INVISIO secures Canadian Armed Forces framework worth up to SEK 450 million for tactical communications and hearing protection
INVISIO has secured a Canadian Armed Forces framework agreement for tactical hearing protection and communications equipment with a potential value of up to SEK 450 million.
defence-industry.eu
Rheinmetall opens UK autonomy centre to deploy Canadian PATH technology and build local defence industrial capability
Rheinmetall has opened an Advanced Land Autonomy Centre of Excellence in the UK to integrate, test and deploy autonomous ground systems for the British market and surrounding regions.
defence-industry.eu
Agreed. However, the CAF has an obligation to make sure members are adequately trained for the job. And just like the CAF doesn't have an obligation to make every member a champion bodybuilder, they don't have an obligation to ensure every member is a sharpshooter. What you do above and beyond the requirements of the job are your hobbies. And the CAF doesn't have an obligation to facilitate them, especially if it's not easily accomodated.
Sure. At a cost. And notable cost these days. Honestly, you can do decently well with most CAF gyms and a training app on your phone. But also PSP led classes work/ed plenty well for a lot of people for ages. If you're paying for a gym it's usually interest or convenience. Heck, I know plenty of civilians who love our gyms and stay fit using them as public servants.
McG
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A PY is a full time RegF position. There are not PYs in the CIC.
We used to have something like that. The current Supp Res was formed by the amalgamation of the Supplementary Holding Reserve and the Supplementary Ready Reserve. Back as recently as the 90’s, the SRR was funded for one day’s pay per year, theoretically so the member would do an annual DAG.
Halifax Tar
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daftandbarmy
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Totally forgot about SRR. A bit before my time though I have heard and read about it. Maybe that's what they will bring back.
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Holding lists are a way of maintaining some attachment to people already usefully trained.
A category of people trained approximately to a level at which they might reasonably not injure themselves in a military environment is something less.
A category of people trained approximately to a level at which they might reasonably not injure themselves in a military environment is something less.
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Are things bad enough that cannibalizing the cadet organization is really worth talking about?
Yep. There's definitely some Reg F and Class B positions in the RCSUs and at their Directorate in Ottawa.
The 7500 CIC? The vast, vast majority aren't full time. And plenty of them go above and beyond the 25 days per year they are paid for. Not sure we're saving that many PYs re-rolling those numbers. And it's the best return on recruiting and PR for the CAF, without question.
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Pretty sure DCRA still exists but it's incredibly small and run by volunteers who are aging. I was a member a few years ago but have moved on with life after I left the CAF. Not much time for hobbies anymore.
They closed a lot of the indoor ranges. A lot of armouries actually had ranges in the basement but many of them have closed for environmental reasons I believe.
Can confirm. Shooting package I received from NTOG was top notch and night and day better than anything I received from the Green Army. There are a few select units (CANSOFCOM, NTOG (Whatever they are called now), JTFX, CP, Sniper Dets, etc) where shooting and practical firearms usage are taken seriously.... Everywhere else, it's treated a PO check and a check-in-the-box for the annual BTS.
Sports are great at mimicking the skills one needs to succeed at soldiering. The best preparation I had for Infantry Training was playing rugby competitively. Getting bashed almost daily at practice, constant rucking and mauling, running, etc was great preparation for getting beat up everyday at the Infantry School. Playing through structured phases on a rugby pitch is a great simulation of a section attack and pepper podding.
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On Class B at the armoury, we used to shoot .22cal revolvers and subcal kits in our FNC1's at lunch in the basement range.
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The combination of lead and asbestos is frowned upon these days.
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The lack of Ventilation help keep the asbestos in place
Indoor ranges (properly built) are expensive.
And realistically it’s outrageously (prohibitively) expensive to build anything beyond 100m with multiple firing lanes.
MilEME09
Army.ca Fixture
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Given the SRP mandates ARes soldiers only shoot PWT1 every year. We only need 100m ranges. One or two 10 lane indoor ranges per major city would probably save a lot of transport costs.The lack of Ventilation help keep the asbestos in place
Indoor ranges (properly built) are expensive.
And realistically it’s outrageously (prohibitively) expensive to build anything beyond 100m with multiple firing lanes.
I attended an amazing presentation years ago from the Singaporeans. They built a massive indoor range in their city where businessmen come in on their lunch hour and do an annual pistol or rifle shoot. They had crazy engineering on the fume and dust extraction and the walls and backstop. They were doing something akin to PWT 2 at these ranges. Incredible stuff.
But given how much infrastructure costs to build in Canada (see Toronto building the most expensive subway on Earth), I can't imagine that facility costing less than $100M in any Canadian city. And covering just the two thirds of Canadians living in the top 20 CMAs probably requires like 30 of those Singaporean facilities.
Edit. Gemini says scaling a similar facility and putting one for every urban area that is about 400k in Canada would require 83 facilities and would cost $12.5B. Maybe this should be part of the reserve restructure and infrastructure plan.
Found a video on the place:
They are building a new one that will train 120k pers per year:
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Figure a million dollars a lane at that point — on top of a ~10m initial investment.
On top of air handler issues, the confined space increases risks of TBI/CSE. Even suppressed carbine/rifle fire isn’t hearing safe / and so to make safe working conditions one end up with a much larger range.
So your 10 lane range is now widened to what 30-50 would have on an outdoor. And now you are at a $50-60M range just so you can cycle 10 shooters at a time through a PWT?
Outdoor ranges are vastly preferable.
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Thank you for the clarification.
Evaluation of the Cadets and Junior Canadian Rangers (Youth Program) - Canada.ca
Evaluation of the Cadets and Junior Canadian Rangers (Youth Program)
DAOD 2020-3, Cadet Organizations Administration and Training Service - Canada.ca
Defence Administrative Orders and Directives - DAOD 2020-3 - Cadet Organizations Administration and Training Service
5001-0 Supervision of Cadets - Canada.ca
The policy regarding Supervision of Cadets that applies to members of the Canadian Cadet Organizations (CCO) and members of the Canadian Armed Forces, and a directive that applies to civilian instructors, volunteers, and employees of the Department of National Defence employed, in the Cadets and...
Queen's Regulations and Orders for Canadian Cadet Organizations (QR Cadets) Chapter 1 - Introduction and Definitions - Canada.ca
Queen's Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Cadet Organizations - QR Cadets - Chapter 1 - Introduction and Definitions
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So from what I can gather
COATS ( Cadet Organizations Administration and Training Service) is operated by the Cadet Istructor Cadre who are voluntary members of the Primary Reserve with their own dedicated terms of service and physical and training standards. They are engaged under Class A or B service. They may be assisted by unpaid civilian volunteers.
In 2019 there were 9,223 COATS staff including 4,726 commissioned members of the CIC (Cadet Instructors Cadre) and 1,601 Civilian Instructors
These people administered and trained 54,325 cadets between the ages of 12 and 18 located all across the provinces in 1,107 local corps and squadrons.
They had a budget of 208 MCAD.
The program comes under the VCDS.
.....
Extrapolation time -
Average local unit size - 49 Cadets
COATS staff per unit - 8.3 Staff
CIC Officers per unit - 4.3 Officers
Civilian Instructors per unit - 1.4 Civilians
Unit Budget - $187,895
11 Cadets per CIC Officer
1 non-CIC COATS staff per CIC Officer
$3,835 per cadet.
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Participation rate - 1.8%
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Junior Canadian Rangers falls under the VCDS but is administered separately by the Canadian Army and falls under the CCA
Junior Canadian Rangers (JCR) is operated by their own Rangers program and staff who are voluntary members of the Primary Reserve with their own dedicated terms of service and physical and training standards. They are engaged under Class A or B service. They may be assisted by unpaid civilian volunteers.
In 2019 there were 756 JCR staff
These people administered and trained 4,279 Junior Rangers between the ages of 12 and 18 located all across the country, particularly in the territories, in 147 local patrols, typically in indigenous communities.
They had a budget of 14 MCAD.
Extrapolation time -
Average local unit size - 29 Junior Rangers
JCR staff per unit - 5.1 Staff
Unit Budget - $95,238
6 Junior Rangers per JCR Staff
$3,284 per cadet.
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Participation rate - from 7 to 25% across the north with the highest rate being in Nunavut.
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My understanding of Commander's Intent:
A desire to raise a supplementary force of 300,000 adult civilian volunteers from across Canadian society and organize them in such a fashion as to make their skills available to the CAF. These civilians, willing to put themselves under military orders, are to be minimally trained and equipped. This includes provision of basic uniforms.
To me that sounds a lot like the Canadian Rangers or Cadets.
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Rather than attaching this corps to the Primary Reserve why not expand the Cadet Organization, with its well documented administrative procedeures and terms, to include a corps of adult volunteers?
If the terms, conditions and standards are insufficient then it seems to me it would be easier to amend and expand them than trying to create a new body out of whole cloth.
Maybe you need different CIC/COAS/JCR staffing categories.
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