• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Canada/US Border Integrity Thread

Canada should seek to extradite American smugglers and charge them as accessories to any crimes committed with the weapons they smuggle. And make loud noises when the US refuses to take action to secure their border.
 
Canada should seek to extradite American smugglers and charge them as accessories to any crimes committed with the weapons they smuggle. And make loud noises when the US refuses to take action to secure their border.
If they crossed into Canada and in doing so committed an offence within our reach, sure. Other than those who actually enter Canada, in most cases there isn’t the extraterritorial jurisdiction necessary to lay a charge and seek extradition, and America won’t extradite for things that aren’t a crime there.
 
Canada should seek to extradite American smugglers and charge them as accessories to any crimes committed with the weapons they smuggle. And make loud noises when the US refuses to take action to secure their border.
As @brihard pointed out most of the ‘smugglers’ on this side are not actually smugglers, but people conducting straw purchases and passing them to others who then export them, or sell them to Canadians who buy them under the table at gun shows etc. So while they are committing a crime down here, it’s not the smuggling aspect.

A lot of Canadians buy guns down here, in non legal manners.

Secondly the likelihood of us allowing anyone to be extradited for smuggling is low, and frankly they are more likely to get a harsher sentence down here for running an illegal gun running ring than anything Canada is going to do - unless the Judge is out to simply punish an American - and that would have a lot of negative repercussions here.

On a personal note, I take hours ensuring that I have all firearms, ammunition, magazines, and any related accessories out of my vehicles before I head to Canada. I used to have a good in with CBP and could leave my handgun etc at the Thousand Island border crossing - but he got promoted, and the new guy wasn’t as keen to be my weapons vault.
 
That all checks out.

I’ll suggest that meaningfully impacting on cross-border gun trafficking calls for a heavily intelligence-led approach, and a concerted and dedicated effort to identify street level suppliers and work up their chain from there. Cooperation from the U.S. side would be vital, as we see how stupidly easy it is to gather handguns in bulk there, starting with legal purchases, and bring them up. I’d say this is a place where some blunt quid pro quo is called for- make some of our partnership on issues of importance to them contingent on them reciprocating.
I'd agree on your last point except that the Trump administration is highly supportive of 2A and are unlikely to do much, if anything, to disturb the 2A community. Trumps has already begun to roll back some Biden era gun legislation.

As we like saying to Trump that the smuggling of dangerous drugs and illegal immigrants into the America is a USCBP problem, he would be right to say that gun smuggling into Canada is a CBSA/RCMP problem.

Our last three governments, and likely the current one, are willing to spend an estimated $2B to collect guns from within Canada and and just over $1B on the entire border. To me this shows they have have never had any intention of confronting the Americans on this issue and will continue to pick the easy path to "see, we did something!".
 
If they crossed into Canada and in doing so committed an offence within our reach, sure. Other than those who actually enter Canada, in most cases there isn’t the extraterritorial jurisdiction necessary to lay a charge and seek extradition, and America won’t extradite for things that aren’t a crime there.
Correct.

Immigration and Refugee Protection Act: 36.2(1). A foreign national is inadmissible on grounds of transborder criminality for committing, on entering Canada, a prescribed offence under an Act of Parliament.

If you're caught smuggling at the border, you are inadmissible. In the US, you have not committed an offence.
 
Amend th Act to extend inadmissibility to those convicted abroad of smuggling into Canada.
 
Amend th Act to extend inadmissibility to those convicted abroad of smuggling into Canada.
Not needed; they’re already inadmissible for serious criminality. CBSA can keep people out easily for all sorts of reasons. Committing an offence outside of Canada, that is an offence in that place, and that if committed in Canada would be an offence punishable by ten years or more is an instant ‘nope!’ at the border under section 36 of IRPA.

With that said, although CBSA has access to the U.S. NCIC database (similar to our CPIC), not everyone entering Canada is run, probably to process vehicles through faster. So getting caught depends on getting checked.

But this is where I was talking earlier about there needing to be some serious intelligence lead on this file.
 
Sometime ago I looked at the stats around straw buying and gun smuggling convictions. There was very little enforcement and even if a felony triggered a federal database search by trying to buy a gun, which is illegal, almost no convictions happened. The US has a lot of good gun control laws on the books already, but has been haphazard on using them.
 
Not needed; they’re already inadmissible for serious criminality. CBSA can keep people out easily for all sorts of reasons. Committing an offence outside of Canada, that is an offence in that place, and that if committed in Canada would be an offence punishable by ten years or more is an instant ‘nope!’ at the border under section 36 of IRPA.
Partly right. 36.1(b) covers such offences. However, 36.1(c) also covers acts, if committed outside Canada that, if committed in Canada would be an offence. Female genital mutilation is a good example. It is legal in some parts of the world, but not here.
With that said, although CBSA has access to the U.S. NCIC database (similar to our CPIC), not everyone entering Canada is run, probably to process vehicles through faster. So getting caught depends on getting checked.
This would happen if there were indicators that an immigration check was necessary and the traveller gets pulled in. If you're flagged for any of a variety of reasons, you're going in.
But this is where I was talking earlier about there needing to be some serious intelligence lead on this file.
Some modes of travel - bus, train and air for example - already have pre-screening regimes in place to speed up immigration processing.

Border wait times are a huge concern to both governments and if delays get too long MPs and ministers start to get phone calls from local, provincial and state politicians and business leaders. That being said during peak travel periods, wait times over 2 hours for travelers are not uncommon.

 
From today's Speech from the Throne:

1748385715370.png

I guess Carney forgot his election promise to bolster CBSA as well, the ones who actually work the border.
 
Partly right. 36.1(b) covers such offences. However, 36.1(c) also covers acts, if committed outside Canada that, if committed in Canada would be an offence. Female genital mutilation is a good example. It is legal in some parts of the world, but not here.
There’s no 36.1? I think you meant 36(1)?

If so you’re part right by my read- 36(1)(b) covers “convicted in another country of something that would be a crime in Canada too”

36(1)(c) covers “did a thing in another country that is a crime there and also a crime here”, whether or not they were convicted in that other country- but it still requires criminality on both sides.

I see some other sections where Canada will extend our standards overseas and seem someone inadmissible regardless of if their actions were legal at home; crimes against humanity and war crimes, and some sanctions stuff. No surprise there.

 
There’s no 36.1? I think you meant 36(1)?
Yeah, bad formatting on my part.
If so you’re part right by my read- 36(1)(b) covers “convicted in another country of something that would be a crime in Canada too”

36(1)(c) covers “did a thing in another country that is a crime there and also a crime here”, whether or not they were convicted in that other country- but it still requires criminality on both sides.
For 36(1)(c), the act doesn't have to be a crime in the country of origin. Female Genital Mutilation is the example I gave as it is still legal in certain parts of the world, but illegal here. Bigamy would be another as it is prohibited in Canada under CCC 290(1) but legal in many African and some South Asian nations whose citizens regularly travel to Canada.
I see some other sections where Canada will extend our standards overseas and seem someone inadmissible regardless of if their actions were legal at home; crimes against humanity and war crimes, and some sanctions stuff. No surprise there.

Some of the most commonly applied are IRPA 36(1) (a) and (b), 36(2)(a) and (b) as discussed above, 36(2.1) known as "committing an offence upon entry", 38(1) (potential burden to health care), 39 (no financial means to support themselves) and 40(1)(a) (misrepresentation).
Brief touch on the border here:

View attachment 93536
Where's our 1000 new officers?
 
Yeah, bad formatting on my part.

For 36(1)(c), the act doesn't have to be a crime in the country of origin. Female Genital Mutilation is the example I gave as it is still legal in certain parts of the world, but illegal here. Bigamy would be another as it is prohibited in Canada under CCC 290(1) but legal in many African and some South Asian nations whose citizens regularly travel to Canada.
I believe you when you say it’s getting applied that way; I can’t square it with how the section’s actually written. I could see Bigamy being covered because it’s an ongoing offence; under our law FGM is Aggravated Assault and once it’s happened it’s happened.

Just as a nerd I’d be curious to know what the policy articulation is that CBSA’s using. I’m on side with it; I’m assuming at this point that there’s something I’m missing that isn’t found directly in IRPA.

Some of the most commonly applied are IRPA 36(1) (a) and (b), 36(2)(a) and (b) as discussed above, 36(2.1) known as "committing an offence upon entry", 38(1) (potential burden to health care), 39 (no financial means to support themselves) and 40(1)(a) (misrepresentation).
Thanks for the run down.

Where's our 1000 new officers?
Time will tell on that one I guess. It’s not like every detail would be in the Throne Speech so hopefully that’s still planned.
 
I believe you when you say it’s getting applied that way; I can’t square it with how the section’s actually written. I could see Bigamy being covered because it’s an ongoing offence; under our law FGM is Aggravated Assault and once it’s happened it’s happened.

Just as a nerd I’d be curious to know what the policy articulation is that CBSA’s using. I’m on side with it; I’m assuming at this point that there’s something I’m missing that isn’t found directly in IRPA.
So, the policy actually belongs to IRCC, not CBSA and I looked it up and read it again today since it had been a while. (Sorry, it's not publicly available/shareable.) And, I explained it wrong.

For 36(1)(c) to be applied, the act does have to be an offence against the laws of the country of origin and in Canada and cannot be the equivalent of a summary offence under their laws. So, bigamy is a good example. FGM would also be of the act was performed in a nation where it was prohibited by law, not just custom, and was equal in severity to an indictable offense there.
Thanks for the run down.
My pleasure. You have oft provided good information to this site. Now, it's my turn.
Time will tell on that one I guess. It’s not like every detail would be in the Throne Speech so hopefully that’s still planned.
1000 new RCMP "personnel' will barely cover attrition, unless the intent is that "new" actually means "additional".
 
So, the policy actually belongs to IRCC, not CBSA and I looked it up and read it again today since it had been a while. (Sorry, it's not publicly available/shareable.) And, I explained it wrong.

For 36(1)(c) to be applied, the act does have to be an offence against the laws of the country of origin and in Canada and cannot be the equivalent of a summary offence under their laws. So, bigamy is a good example. FGM would also be of the act was performed in a nation where it was prohibited by law, not just custom, and was equal in severity to an indictable offense there.

Ok, there we go, I think we just synced up our understanding.
1000 new RCMP "personnel' will barely cover attrition, unless the intent is that "new" actually means "additional".

I’d take it to mean new PYs. Now, as to breakdown between actual cops, civilian criminal investigators, civilian operational and civilian administrative positions, who knows?
 
I've just recently gotten into the immigration side of my job. It's interesting but very complex.
I’d take it to mean new PYs. Now, as to breakdown between actual cops, civilian criminal investigators, civilian operational and civilian administrative positions, who knows?
That's the missing granularity. "Personnel" doesn't always translate into uniformed, badged members for your org or mine.
 
That's the granularity. "Personnel" doesn't always translate into uniformed, badged members for your org or mine.
No- but operational effectiveness doesn’t just rely on badged members. A civilian intelligence analyst, or financial crime civilian investigator might bring a lot more to the table that some RCMP NCO plucked out of headquarters, and ordered to put on a uniform and stare at some tRees at the border for a month.
 
Back
Top