Canada's options: fight in Afghanistan or secure 2010 Olympics ?

[wannabe SF member]

but seriously an Armed Force -- especially a Foreign force is not the answer to the Olympic security issue.

You don' expect the Vancouver police and the RCMP to cover the entire event themselves do you?

 

[KevinB]

Your missing the entire point.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

You don' expect the Vancouver police and the RCMP to cover the entire event themselves do you?

Seriously...?  They should - but can't.

 

[safeboy43]

Seriously...?  They should - but can't.

Many thanks to the Liberal government for under funding the RCMP  :threat:

 

[Haggis]

Quite frankly Private Security is not an option for securing of sites etc.

Companies could be hired to private security to individual athletes. From a Canadian PMC perspective Alan Bell's Globe Risk is the only real option for PSD for athlete's.

However in the grand scheme a PMC (Erinys is not a good example) would have to contract TCN's (Third Country Nationals) to keep costs down -- look at Triple Canopy in Iraq (Philipino's, El Salvadoran etc.) the result is a questionable mismatch of personnel. 

I seriously doubt that government would condone armed foreign nationals employed by non-state entities (i.e a private firm, as opposed to a "federal" law enforcement or military organization which could be legally allowed to be armed in Canada under a Status of Forces Agreement) providing security for Olympic venues or participants.  The legality of any potential use of force scenarios, for one, would be a huge concern and a public relations nightmare.  Picture this in the National Post:  PERUVIAN OLYMPIC SECURITY DETAIL KILLS CANADIAN AT WHISTLER

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Hmmm, depends on who they whack... 8)

 

[hank011]

...and as luck would have it, every force has its own training system. This means no quick fix for them as they have to train them all over again in Regina. I saw what happened when they absorbed the Townies in Nova Scotia. It took many years before they weeded out enough "good ol' boys" to start making arrests again.
It's going to take many years at the rate they recruit and train to catch up to the retirement rate let alone expand to anything more than just a token force. Every town I've lived in recently barely has enough staff to cover the phones, if you need anything you have to make an appointment.
At one time the rarest sight in Canada was an RCMP officer's butt, cause they never got out of their cruisers. Now its the RCMP themselves that are rare.

 

[KevinB]

I seriously doubt that government would condone armed foreign nationals employed by non-state entities (i.e a private firm, as opposed to a "federal" law enforcement or military organization which could be legally allowed to be armed in Canada under a Status of Forces Agreement) providing security for Olympic venues or participants.  The legality of any potential use of force scenarios, for one, would be a huge concern and a public relations nightmare.  Picture this in the National Post:  PERUVIAN OLYMPIC SECURITY DETAIL KILLS CANADIAN AT WHISTLER

Haggis -- I agree 100% with you ---

I was meaning unarmed security from Globe Risk (and FWIW Firms can be legally armed in Canada...)
  BTW some of the Foriegn Security details will be armed and covered by a Diplo passport.

 

[nova_flush]

Why will the Olympics be a problem in 2010? I remember in September went I went back to my unit, they made me sign a paper asking me if I'm willing to be deployed to Vancouver in order to assure security for the 2010 Olympics (I’m a reservist btw). We have the reserves to ensure back-up for domestic security, I say start training the reserves and a little bit of regs and we are good to go.

 

[Haggis]

I was meaning unarmed security from Globe Risk (and FWIW Firms can be legally armed in Canada...)

True, as long as all the requirements of the enabling legislation (i.e. in Ontario the Private Investigators and Security Guards Act and the federal Firearms Act) are met by the firm and it's employees.

BTW some of the Foreign Security details will be armed and covered by a Diplo passport.

.. and a SOFA as they are usually "agents of the state".  They will also be required to coordinate their efforts with the lead host nation agency and operate within very strict host nation ROE, diplomatic status notwithstanding.

My point is that the final responsibility for Olympic security must rest with the host nation security and law enforcement services.  In some countries the Armed Forces are an integral and pervasive part of that service.  In Canada, the Armed Forces provide a complementary and supplementary capability to the public security institution.... a force of absolute last resort.

I remember in September went I went back to my unit, they made me sign a paper asking me if I'm willing to be deployed to Vancouver in order to assure security for the 2010 Olympics (I’m a reservist btw).

Good on your unit for being proactive but the CF hasn't been asked/tasked to provide support yet.  Secondly, if you get a high paying civvy job 18 months from now and release, is that paper you signed still binding?  I doubt it. 

We have the reserves to ensure back-up for domestic security, I say start training the reserves and a little bit of regs and we are good to go.

The Reserve (all of 'em, not just Army) will be made available to planners if/when appropriate.  Until the CF receives a request for assistance, we do not know what tasks to train for.  Again, jumping the gun a bit, I'd say.

 

[nova_flush]

We should ask the liberals in their next debate what is their plans for the army and how are they planning to handle the 2010 situation. They are currently in their race for leadership so it is a perfect time to see what they are willing to do to handle the situation. It is becoming tight between the liberals and the conservators and they might be the ones in power when big decisions need to be taken concerning the army and the 2010 Olympics.

 

[Whiskey_Dan]

Ok no where in there did I read about specific roles for security so obviously nobody took a look at the news a couple days ago.
In a CTV article http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061120/oly_security_061120/20061120/ it is the RCMP's Integrated National Security Enforcement Team that will head the security for the olympics in which it will include the Vancouver Police, CSIC, RCMP, Transport Canada, and members of the CF.
Plus I know a lot of members from 39CBG would love to provide security for the games considering housing would not have to be provided for most of the brigade members considering this is our back yard. A little bit of extra training to make sure no mishaps occur and what is the problem with using reservists? Plus, would people really like the idea of us walking around with chambered rounds? why not just go to the load but not ready?
Just my two cents.

Dan

 

[Haggis]

Ok no where in there did I read about specific roles for security so obviously nobody took a look at the news a couple days ago.
In a CTV article http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061120/oly_security_061120/20061120/ it is the RCMP's Integrated National Security Enforcement Team that will head the security for the olympics in which it will include the Vancouver Police, CSIC, RCMP, Transport Canada, and members of the CF.

Check your source.  The web article correctly states "and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)".  CF involvement is not mentioned in that paragraph but is pure speculation by the NDP member Dawn Black and the journalist earlier on.

 
Plus I know a lot of members from 39CBG would love to provide security for the games considering housing would not have to be provided for most of the brigade members considering this is our back yard. A little bit of extra training to make sure no mishaps occur and what is the problem with using reservists? Plus, would people really like the idea of us walking around with chambered rounds? why not just go to the load but not ready?

Given adequate warning for specific tasks, along with time, resources and money for training, there is no problem with Reservists.  The problem is that the CF hasn't been asked/tasked YET!!  When (note that I didn't say "if") the time comes, the INSERT will make specific requests to the CF for personnel and resources which may or may not include portions of 39 CBG. 

This is all fear mongering by the NDP and the media.  This is all "pie-in-the-sky" stuff at this point.  Who knows what else will happen in the world between now and 2010 that will impact the 2010 games?  Maybe the Olympics will be canceled because AQ has nukes?  Maybe BC will slide into the ocean because of an earthquake?  Maybe we'll have an NDP majority who will gut the CF once again?  Maybe the Leafs will win the Cup?  Maybe Dubya will have his North American Union? (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/11/21/2433311-cp.html)

Does any body have an evaluation of the required manpower, material, money for the security of the 2010 Olympics?

No

Why?

Because we haven't been asked to provide anything yet!!

Maybe this?  Maybe that?  Maybe?  Geez!!!

 

[rmacqueen]

You can probably count on JTF2 being in the area during the Olympics, just like they were during the Commonwealth games in Victoria in 94

 

[KevinB]

You can probably count on JTF2 being in the area during the Olympics, just like they were during the Commonwealth games in Victoria in 94

 

[mercury]

1976 Olympics was held in both Kingston and Montreal, I was employed in Task Force 2 HQ, Montreal.  Approximently 12,000 pers were deployed in both locations.  We did pre olympic exercises and spent six weeks in situ..

 

[pbi]

You don' expect the Vancouver police and the RCMP to cover the entire event themselves do you?

I don't think any reasonable poster here suggests that they will have to. The point of argument that I support, and that makes sense based on domestic security ops I have been involved in, is that the CF will ;provide mostly "general supportt" and some specialized capabilities only where these can't be provided by civil authorities and contractors (who can, in some cases, probably work more cheaply than what DND would charge the Province in cost recovery) We might still be required to provide armed force beyond what the police can generate, but even that doesn't necessarily require that subtract any Army troops from Afgh. But anyway, what is the threat assessment? Is the CF even the right agency to guard against the peceived threat?

Cheers

 

[Edward Campbell]

Ruxted has weighed in.  Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act, is their take:

http://ruxted.ca/index.php?/archives/31-Doing-All-The-Jobs.html

Doing [All] The Jobs

The Ruxted Group is aware of a recent AFP report, reproduced at Yahoo Canada News and discussed at length in Army.ca, which suggests that DND and the CF cannot, simultaneously: help provide security for the 2010 Winter Olympics at Vancouver/Whistler; and continue the mission in Afghanistan. The article cites both Le Devoir and Colonel (ret’d) Michel Drapeau who suggest, respectively that: The dual tasking will be a “headache” for the defence department and military planners; and “It’s impossible to protect the 2010 Olympics and maintain forces elsewhere in the world, whether it’s Afghanistan or somewhere else … We’re already squeezed.” Ruxted believes the AFP article misrepresents the real situation.

The Olympics are not just a local, Vancouver, commitment. British Columbia and the Government of Canada have willingly accepted shares of the responsibility, as they must. Afghanistan is a national commitment, too. The Parliament of Canada, representing the people of Canada, has decided that the Canadian Forces will remain in Afghanistan until, at least, 2009. Many experts, including high ranking Canadian military officers, suggest that we will need to remain there or much longer.

Le Devoir is correct: doing DND’s share of 2010 Olympic support – not, necessarily, only security and not everything the organizers say they want – will be a headache. That’s why there is a headquarters: to address problems which might cause headaches. Most military problems make civilian, especially media heads, ache. For example: getting a squadron of old tanks, destined for oblivion, up to modern combat ready standards and shipping them halfway around the globe in very short order would be an impossible thought for 99% of Canadians. It was a headache for military planners in National Defence Headquarters; they solved the problem – that’s what they do.

Col (ret’d) Drapeau is partially correct: DND is stretched – see a recent Ruxted article suggesting ways to retain more trained, skilled soldiers and reform recruiting as ways to ease the overstretch.

Ruxted expects the fully stretched military’s staff will negotiate, carefully, to ensure that the Canadian Forces do all, but only, those tasks which should not or cannot be done by civilian agencies.

Col (ret’d) Drapeau is quite wrong when he suggests that doing Afghanistan, or even Afghanistan plus another mission and helping to protect the 2010 Olympics would be “impossible.” The multiple tasks might be a headache; they might even, briefly, overstretch DND’s resources but they are, most emphatically, NOT impossible!

Consider: Canada, with a very large DND component, provided security for the G8 summit at Kananaskis in 2002 while Canadian combat troops were in Afghanistan and the Balkans and ships were in operations at sea in the Persian Gulf. In security terms the threat at Kananaskis was, probably, at least as great as the one which Canada will face in 2010.

Consider, further: Olympic security is and should be largely a civil police task - with specialized military support. Military support will, likely, include coastal, air and even space based surveillance – none of which are currently over-tasked in Afghanistan. Units like JTF-2 and the newly formed CSOR may have some tasks in Afghanistan but parts, at least, of both will be available for Vancouver/Whistler.

The military may, also, help out in many other supporting roles but Ruxted suggests that Montreal (1976) is not a good example of how DND should support an Olympics. Further, still: not every task proposed for DND and the CF by the Vancouver Organizing Committee (VANOC) should be accepted by DND. Tasks ought not to be ‘assigned’ to DND just to save money or for organizational convenience. Most tasks which can be done by civilians should be done by civilians – at the expense of the Organizing Committee.

The fact that 100,000 soldiers were deployed in Athens, or that 15,000 were deployed in Turin, is irrelevant. The types of Canadian military support and numbers of people required will be determined by joint (military/civil – city/province/federal) and possibly even combined (international) planning teams which, Ruxted assumes, exist and are operating now, carefully balancing threats and risks against the overwhelming requirement to make the Olympics a free, open safe event – for athletes and spectators, alike.

Canadians do not want or need a militarized Olympics. A large uniformed military presence would send the wrong message to Canadians, to visitors and to enemies, alike, making Canada appear akin to a police state, rather than the traditional ‘peaceable kingdom’ within which citizens and visitors go about their lawful business without undue interference by the state – especially by its uniformed, armed services. While Ruxted contends that a large, visible military presence will provide little if any increase in security, should the national government so decide, the CF will provide that capability – it may need to be an “all hands on deck” affair for a few weeks.

As the nature or the DND/CF task becomes clear it may be that the Minister of National Defence will need to ask parliament for more money and he may tell the CDS to find innovative ways to meet multiple requirements - Parliament and the defence staff are used to both.

Ruxted sees the AFP article as just another part of the hypocritical “Support the Troops – Bring Them Home!” campaign. Ruxted acknowledges that ‘Taliban Jack’ Layton and fellow travellers in the media have been politically skilful in obscuring the real issues regarding Canada’s role in the world and duping a large share of a generally ill-informed and disinterested Canadian public into opposing good public policy. Ruxted is pleased to consider that the national policy centre – the Privy Council Office – is unlikely, ever, to regard the hysterical 'thoughts' of Layton and the lazy left wing of the media as anything but tripe.

The Canadian Forces has a long and proud history of meeting this country's domestic needs - be it aid to law enforcement or other government departments or military support under the Emergencies Act, particularly where Canadians' health or safety are endangered. While Canadian troops may remain deployed in Afghanistan in 2010 and beyond Ruxted believes that DND can and will maintain operations overseas, provide full, competent support for the 2010 Olympics, and maintain the myriad other national and international military/security commitments directed by the people of Canada through their elected Parliament.

I agree with Ruxted: both Le Devoir and Col (ret'd) Drapeau are exaggerating the problem - nearly, but not quite to the point of fear mongering.

This is not to minimize the problems which will materialize.  I expect the problems are already surfacing as, I hear on the rumour net that the organizing committee (VANOC) is already trying to use DND as a cost cutting service: asking DND to so jobs which can and should be done, for fees, by the private sector.

 

[wannabe SF member]

I stand admirative as once again the Ruxted group has answered questions i hadn't even though of yet ;D,

Thanks Edward Campbell