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Canada's tanks

KevinB said:
If you think Canada closed it’s eyes during GWOT, down here a lot of folks didn’t see a need for tanks anymore, and this is one case where the pork barreling from Congress actually averted a complete catastrophe.
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The peace dividend and illusion that major armed conflicts were over delusion spread far and wide. Judging by how we are now seeing the Russian military, they were not immune from it either.

I tend to agree on the Congress thing. Maintaining a defence industry is a very important part of a country's defence capability. Unfortunately Civilian leaders often don't think about it and military leaders are quick to throw it under the bus when budgets are tight and the industry slips down the priority list well below PYs butts in cubicles. Congress definitely did the right thing here. If they hadn't we'd all be buying South Korean.

I'm a firm believer in keeping administrative costs lean but spending $ on hard manufacturing facilities. It strikes me that things like missile and flying weapon production is one of those things that can be made to work at our scale in small form factories and we should definitely nurture those with long term contracts.

🍻
 
Fabius said:
She specifically said that the donated tanks will be replaced by tanks that may not be Leo2A4s NOT that they won’t be Leo’s.
A nuance that is not picked up very well by the media.
Also no indication on timeline so I will not be expecting anything soon given we are now a year into our UOR for ATGMs etc. with still nothing announced nor any announced plans to replace M777s and artillery ammunition.
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M777s aren’t being produced anymore. They literally can’t do anything without a whole new piece of equipment. The Indirect Fires Modernization project is as of yet unfunded.
 
All true but a Battery of Paladins for eFP to get our feet back into the SP game is in theory if not in fact a possibility until the IDF modernization gets funded and figured out.

BAE was also in talks to reopen production of M777 if the orders were placed by the interested nations. Who knows if Canada indicated interest.
 
Fabius said:
All true but a Battery of Paladins for eFP to get our feet back into the SP game is in theory if not in fact a possibility until the IDF modernization gets funded and figured out.

BAE was also in talks to reopen production of M777 if the orders were placed by the interested nations. Who knows if Canada indicated interest.
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I don't think youll find many folks in the West shopping around for towed howitzers after we have seen the dire need to shoot and scoot.
 
Fabius said:
All true but a Battery of Paladins for eFP to get our feet back into the SP game is in theory if not in fact a possibility until the IDF modernization gets funded and figured out.

BAE was also in talks to reopen production of M777 if the orders were placed by the interested nations. Who knows if Canada indicated interest.
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The US would bend over backwards to help us if we asked to lease 15-20 Paladins of them.
 
Fabius said:
All true but a Battery of Paladins for eFP to get our feet back into the SP game is in theory if not in fact a possibility until the IDF modernization gets funded and figured out.

BAE was also in talks to reopen production of M777 if the orders were placed by the interested nations. Who knows if Canada indicated interest.
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Poke around the DWAN, you may be surprised
 
KevinB said:
They still have a role. Just not a role in Mech and Armor formations.
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The whole saga about M777s in Canada is both interesting and serendipitous and based on the development of needs as Afghanistan went along.

With the move away from "heavy armour" - read tracks - in favour of light - read wheeled - we bagged the SPs without any project on the books for replacement. There was an unfunded "Future Indirect Fire Capability" project in the hands of DLR by 2004 to explore where to go next and when you look at the briefing slides every gun was a version of a wheeled SP. The M777 had not been fielded.

By 2005 CLS redesigned the artillery with a mandate for a lightweight towed howitzer with precision ammunition as Afghanistan was on the horizon. We lucked in getting 6 M777s on FMS from the Marines with 4 destined for Afghanistan and two for training. When things got rocky in Afghanistan in 2006 we exercised the option for 6 more FMS to be able to deploy 6 and train on six.

Parts were an issue. The US was great in looking after our needs but Afghanistan was rough on the guns and the production runs were still quite low. We bent two which was fortunate because we leased two to replace them and were using the bent two for cannibalized parts until they finally went back to the manufacturer for overhaul.

Running maintenance was always an issue - particularly getting parts and getting the guns out of the field where they could be properly serviced at 2nd line. There came a point where a third UOR was generated for 16 additional guns because by then the M777 had morphed into our operational gun and the maintenance issues and shuffling the guns around the country from one regiment to another for every roto was getting out of hand.

That UOR was eventually cancelled in favour of a full on funded project in 2008 which brought in 25 additional guns and properly managed support program.

Long story short, the vision in 2000 - 2004 was to support our mech forces with a type of wheeled SP and our light forces with the LG1. 2005 and Afghanistan brought us down the road of ever increasing number of M777s. Funding priorities after Afghanistan have ever since forestalled any move to a more balanced artillery structure to suite a mechanized force.

In fairness, the M777 also became the standard gun for the Stryker BCTs. It's a fairly recent development to move them to a wheeled SP.

I like the M777 as a light gun because it can be heli-lifted in theatre. I believe the requirement for that capability still exists in certain light forces, and as long as it does the M777 will fit the bill nicely. Air transportability into expeditionary theatres is a red herring. By the time that you add the gun tractor to the gun, it will take up the same space as a wheeled SP on a transport aircraft. Airlifting ammo is a much greater logistics burden then the gun, tractor or SP.

As long as we have mixed forces of both mechanized and light infantry, we need two artillery systems to support them properly. (actually more when you start adding in loitering munitions and long range rocket systems.)

I'm firmly in the camp of keeping all of our remaining M777s but allocating 18 of them to one light regiment to support one light brigade with the surplus going into spares and training locations. We should not go below the 33 that we have. All of them are necessary to keep an 18 gun regiment and the training system fully supplied.

What we need then is two 18 gun regiments worth of wheeled SPs to support two mechanized brigades, plus the usual spares and training guns which would put us in excess of 50. And no, I don't see that happening but that's what's needed if you want to play the game for real.

And boy do these threads ever amble. Have you looked at the C3 replacement thread recently?

🍻
 
I’m hoping for at least 1x 18 gun M109 Reg’t
Simply because I’m also hoping that Ukraine LL’s are taken into consideration when rebuilding the Tank and IFV fleets.
 
If this group had control over purchasing of equipment for the CAF, the budget would increase would be huge and every base in Canada would be in need of serious upgrades and new ranges.

The shopping list includes

New trucks, ( some already coming on line and and upgrades in numbers) LSVW dumped, Milcot dumped
Tanks, M1 family, or Leo Family no one has made a sound argument on which model, just the need for more
LAV Family upgrades and rebuilds ( get rid of the aged out m113 units)
TAPV ( most likely dumped )
SPG only thing everyone agrees on is the caliber has to be 155mm wheeled or tracked to be decided later
towed guns, no one agrees, 105, 155 just something
AD anything is better than nothing

I personally would like to see an updated LEO, already have them in stock and everyone is familiar with how they work so updating the training plan would be easy.

Biggest issue would be training grounds and ranges as they would be very crowded
 
FormerHorseGuard said:
If this group had control over purchasing of equipment for the CAF, the budget would increase would be huge and every base in Canada would be in need of serious upgrades and new ranges.

The shopping list includes

New trucks, ( some already coming on line and and upgrades in numbers) LSVW dumped, Milcot dumped
Tanks, M1 family, or Leo Family no one has made a sound argument on which model, just the need for more
LAV Family upgrades and rebuilds ( get rid of the aged out m113 units)
TAPV ( most likely dumped )
SPG only thing everyone agrees on is the caliber has to be 155mm wheeled or tracked to be decided later
towed guns, no one agrees, 105, 155 just something
AD anything is better than nothing

I personally would like to see an updated LEO, already have them in stock and everyone is familiar with how they work so updating the training plan would be easy.

Biggest issue would be training grounds and ranges as they would be very crowded
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I actually don’t think the budget would need to jump. We are funded well enough, we simply don’t spend what we have and what we do spend on is over priced and often under whelming
 
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