Canada's tanks

[YZT580]

But the ‘regular’ steel there isn’t exactly the same grade as one finds on a Caterpillar Dozer or Giant Dumptruck either.

perhaps not but teaching an apprentice to weld armoured plating is simply a matter of teaching a student to weld armoured plating. Once he has practiced a few dozen times some degree of competence should be developed. All shipyards involved in restoration, certification, or construction of military classed hulls have had to train up their staff. They don't send out for specialized staff when one of the frigates goes in for repairs. So what is the big deal in teaching a few folks, after a few months you have a fully functional service bay. Just send the composites out

 

[Colin Parkinson]

But the ‘regular’ steel there isn’t exactly the same grade as one finds on a Caterpillar Dozer or Giant Dumptruck either.

RHA or flat armour plate is a well known beast and basically requires slightly different techniques and rods

If you happen to own a CVRT, here is welding guide for them

http://www.scorpiontank.co.uk/PDFs/Repair%20Overhaul%20etc/Aluminium%20Armour%20Welding%20Repair%20Guide%20(8%20November%202011).pdf

Otokar Armored Vehicle Hull Main Welding Line and Full Penetration Welding Technique

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[childs56]

Some will make us think welding armor is some level bazillion secret military only depot project. Those same people will tell us fixing composites is a military only secret. Yet neither are.
There are a few companies who weld exotic metals every day, fewer who deal with various composites such as ceramics, polymers/ Kevlar, aluminum/ titanium/ metal/ composite alloys and coatings. Some of those companies have been directly and indirectly involved in special composite metals for industrial use that the military peeked their interest in.
It is funny one of my friends was telling me that his company was hired to perform inspections on armored vehicles and shortly after ended the contract. A few reasons they left the contract, 1 they observed cracks that the customer would not fix. (they could not figure out why they were there if things were not going to be fixed). 2 some of the composites had such a special technique for doing inspection that their recommendation was just replace the part it would be cheaper due to the man hours required to fully inspect the part. 3. The military rep new more then the NDT inspectors did, most times when they said a part was OS/ needed repair the military rep said he did not think so. Yet he never seen the testing or results. Just his expert opinion. When they tried explaining why their recommendation the rep said "that's your opinion".
They also had to put a lot of time into figuring out the process to inspect the various parts. Deeming what was and was not acceptable because they were not given any reference.
It really is funny how contracts go, I told him that this was more then likely their way to say they were doing preventative maintenance without having to actually do the work.

Ultimately if a shop in Germany or Holland, or Poland or South Korea or Sierra Army Depot can fix and repair tanks then so can other shops given the tools and training required for specific process required.

 

[markppcli]

Some will make us think welding armor is some level bazillion secret military only depot project. Those same people will tell us fixing composites is a military only secret. Yet neither are.
There are a few companies who weld exotic metals every day, fewer who deal with various composites such as ceramics, polymers/ Kevlar, aluminum/ titanium/ metal/ composite alloys and coatings. Some of those companies have been directly and indirectly involved in special composite metals for industrial use that the military peeked their interest in.
It is funny one of my friends was telling me that his company was hired to perform inspections on armored vehicles and shortly after ended the contract. A few reasons they left the contract, 1 they observed cracks that the customer would not fix. (they could not figure out why they were there if things were not going to be fixed). 2 some of the composites had such a special technique for doing inspection that their recommendation was just replace the part it would be cheaper due to the man hours required to fully inspect the part. 3. The military rep new more then the NDT inspectors did, most times when they said a part was OS/ needed repair the military rep said he did not think so. Yet he never seen the testing or results. Just his expert opinion. When they tried explaining why their recommendation the rep said "that's your opinion".
They also had to put a lot of time into figuring out the process to inspect the various parts. Deeming what was and was not acceptable because they were not given any reference.
It really is funny how contracts go, I told him that this was more then likely their way to say they were doing preventative maintenance without having to actually do the work.

Ultimately if a shop in Germany or Holland, or Poland or South Korea or Sierra Army Depot can fix and repair tanks then so can other shops given the tools and training required for specific process required.

The thing is that armour plate isn’t just steel, it’s layered steel and ceramic and if I’m not mistaken @KevinB for its actual make up is TS ? So I imagine that’s a big chunk of it. Worn ceramic likely requires full replacement, hence why they’re talking about then cracked hills requiring replacement vs repair. I’m not sure what the “elastic material” is in the spacing but I imagine that’s a relatively complex process to bond? Again I’m no welder but I’m fairly certain that’s a bit outside the realm of experience for most guys in Alberta.

 

[Underway]

Agreed. Modern armoured plate is a laminate or matrix of metal and ceramic, with other layers of rubber and kevlar underneath or on top of it (like anti spalling liners and spaced rubber).

The hull of the tank frame is likey steel at its base, but all the crap you pile on top of that certainly is not. Often you have to velcro (yes velcro), bolt or otherwise affix the plate onto the steel frame/hull of the tank. Some newer versions have the ceramic armour integral to the hull as well. And if it degrades you repair it by replacement as you're not gluing the ceramic back together as its not going to stop what you want it to stop.

Welding quality and inspections are important. People say that its easy to weld but there is a reason you often get rewelds on shipbuilds, because they fail inspection. So apparently a good weld is hard to do, especially on that scale.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

When cracks appear because of stress and fatigue, the whole hull is compromised. Not just the crack. Weld all you want. That won't change.

Now, pretend for a minute you are the driver, sitting down in that hull. How comfortable are you going to be going into an engagement with a near or equal peer? Especially when you know your hull is held together with a bunch of stress welds and that your hull is compromised.

Tanks, during engagement, often have a life expectation measured in minutes. You need every advantage available in order to survive. While the technical discussion here might have some merit, it is academic. I'm not a degreed technologist, I can't compete with that discussion. My practical experience comes from over 35 years in the Corps.

By all means, keep discussing welds, gun tape, bailing wire and other ways of cheaping out during peacetime. I've stated my feelings and will leave the more academic side of the discussion to you guys. Just make sure, when the balloon goes up, your crews have every advantage available to them to survive in a hostile environment. Keep the old tired stuff at the school for training and weld it up to your hearts content.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Trust me. If Canada could've cheaped out on the cracked hulls by refurbing them, they would have. You just can't weld up a stress fracture and forget about it. The weld becomes the strongest part but the stress just moves to a weaker portion outside that weld. And continues to crack. Once the metal becomes fatigued, it becomes fatigued throughout the module, not just where it cracked first. It behooves the military to provide the newest and best equipment for the operators. Sending out crews in inferior equipment that is constantly being jury-rigged and repaired, where the reason is expediency and saving money, doesn't work. If the crews aren't confident in their equipment, they won't exploit it to it's full potential, for fear of putting themselves in jeopardy with equipment that no longer meets it's designed capability.

The RCN laughs at your concerns over stress fractures and says 'hold my beer'. 'jury rigged equipment' is our middle name. Now have decks thinned to the point where people are asking how thin steel gets before it's no longer considered 'smoke tight'.

But agree, proper repairs are pretty extensive, and will be a lot more extensive than grinding it out, slapping on some weld and calling it a day. Does work for temp repairs though as long as you can drill out the ends of the crack, NDT things etc, but sometimes that's more work than a proper repair.

 

[markppcli]

Couple of points perhaps?

First, I thought a lot of composite armours came as bolt on modules that affixed to an RHA, Steel or aluminum body?

Second, how about keeping the training fleet separate from war stocks and stop issuing full sets of equipment to every unit?

Third, how about "refreshing" the fleet "regularly" and "retiring" gear while it still has life in it?

I mean it’s a nice theory to have training fleets and operational fleets but in practice the training fleet will become the operational fleet and vice versa. You also can’t really expect and armoured regiment, as an example, to train as a regiment of it has less than half its required tanks, as they can’t maneuver their elements.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think you will find that the fancy bits of the armour are on the top of the hull or are bolt on (or glued/velco or even in slots) Lower hulls have always been either cast or RHA plate to simplify construction. As for stress cracks, look at any cold war tank in a museum and you find some eventually. Every country has had to do hull repairs to their tanks, as most date from the Cold War and get heavily used during training. When a common issue is found it is often resolved by drilling out the end of the crack, rewelding it, then doublers or stiffeners in the area to spread out the stress. Often it's in areas of right angels and such where they appear. But some tanks have seen stress through the turret, generally due to a bigger gun being fitted (common on the 90mm CVRT).
As for tanks going into combat with field repairs, you better get used to that. Some of the tanks in the Ukraine conflict have been knocked out several times already, repaired and back in service, often with a different army.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Heck, it is hard to find a welder that can do a decent purged weld for food processing plants. But we do find them. And keep them employed.

Who needs apprentice programs and trades training in high schools anyways. Everyone deserves a Degree in Basketweaving and Intersectionality.

 

[KevinB]

Couple of points perhaps?

First, I thought a lot of composite armours came as bolt on modules that affixed to an RHA, Steel or aluminum body?

Depends. A lot of vehicles these days have bolt (or Velcro) on additional armor.
Don’t confuse that for actual composite armor that is in the base armor of the tank (or other IFV).

Second, how about keeping the training fleet separate from war stocks and stop issuing full sets of equipment to every unit?

Because a lot of countries are cheap ass weasels.

Third, how about "refreshing" the fleet "regularly" and "retiring" gear while it still has life in it?

Again see my above point.

 

[suffolkowner]

Seems like some sort of repair and overhaul facility is justified but it would have to be funded. Obviously we have fallen behind on maintaining armoured forces but we are not the only one by the looks of our NATO allies including Germany.Perhaps the Leo2 tank is not the greates model what are the man-hours of maintenance on an Abrams for a year? What are the items that are driving the 10 fold increase in maintenance over the Leo1's.

As an aside I have seen guys weld pretty much anything under crazy conditions with the right rod. Problem is it is really expensive. I have also seen guys take a week to weld something that could have been done in a couple hours because the refused to pull the rod out of the oven even though I offered to pay for it and that was 15 yrs ago welding low carbon high alloy, hardened and cast with no treatment

edit

As weve seen with Ukraine stocks of equipment on their own can be a valuable contribution to an alliance or to contain a geopolitical opponent something I dont remember anyone really thinking about before

 

[childs56]

Agreed. Modern armoured plate is a laminate or matrix of metal and ceramic, with other layers of rubber and kevlar underneath or on top of it (like anti spalling liners and spaced rubber).

The hull of the tank frame is likey steel at its base, but all the crap you pile on top of that certainly is not. Often you have to velcro (yes velcro), bolt or otherwise affix the plate onto the steel frame/hull of the tank. Some newer versions have the ceramic armour integral to the hull as well. And if it degrades you repair it by replacement as you're not gluing the ceramic back together as its not going to stop what you want it to stop.

Welding quality and inspections are important. People say that its easy to weld but there is a reason you often get rewelds on shipbuilds, because they fail inspection. So apparently a good weld is hard to do, especially on that scale.

You often get rewelds when they do not follow proper procedure.
When shops out here stopped paying for guys mistakes then magically fewer mistakes were being made.

When cracks appear because of stress and fatigue, the whole hull is compromised. Not just the crack. Weld all you want. That won't change.

Not really, that is where a hull survey would be conducted, and panels would be replaced, stress relieved, replaced etc

Now, pretend for a minute you are the driver, sitting down in that hull. How comfortable are you going to be going into an engagement with a near or equal peer? Especially when you know your hull is held together with a bunch of stress welds and that your hull is compromised.

I guess you wouldn't want to drive our current tanks more then likely they are refurb hulls.

Tanks, during engagement, often have a life expectation measured in minutes. You need every advantage available in order to survive. While the technical discussion here might have some merit, it is academic. I'm not a degreed technologist, I can't compete with that discussion. My practical experience comes from over 35 years in the Corps.

By all means, keep discussing welds, gun tape, bailing wire and other ways of cheaping out during peacetime. I've stated my feelings and will leave the more academic side of the discussion to you guys. Just make sure, when the balloon goes up, your crews have every advantage available to them to survive in a hostile environment. Keep the old tired stuff at the school for training and weld it up to your hearts content.

It really is not cheeping out during peace time. It is spreading skill and knowledge around industry to have the experience to fix and repair tanks across the country, not just in Quebec where they send the hulls back to Germany to be repaired.

 

[Spencer100]

You often get rewelds when they do not follow proper procedure.
When shops out here stopped paying for guys mistakes then magically fewer mistakes were being made.

Not really, that is where a hull survey would be conducted, and panels would be replaced, stress relieved, replaced etc

I guess you wouldn't want to drive our current tanks more then likely they are refurb hulls.

It really is not cheeping out during peace time. It is spreading skill and knowledge around industry to have the experience to fix and repair tanks across the country, not just in Quebec where they send the hulls back to Germany to be repaired.

Not enough business to open a shop to fix tanks in Canada. Don't forget even if you do in many cases you may not have the right to do so. Rheinmetall (or KMW) may not allow you to in many cases. The upfront work to get a shop certified just to be able to look at a tank would be more that most shops could handle.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not enough business to open a shop to fix tanks in Canada. Don't forget even if you do in many cases you may not have the right to do so. Rheinmetall (or KMW) may not allow you to in many cases. The upfront work to get a shop certified just to be able to look at a tank would be more that most shops could handle.

With the Koreans eating into the international markets and now in Europe, the Germans are likely going to have to change to keep market share. The Koreans are very flexible in their business arrangements as to who builds and maintains what. BC got a lot of flak for the aluminium fast ferries, but a lot of the current boat builders got their start in that program and it is the reason that there is a good selection of quality aluminium boats on this coast. If we had a proper repair/assembly shop for tanks, that would increase the skill and knowledge of the Canadian workforce and make for other opportunities.

 

[YZT580]

Not enough business to open a shop to fix tanks in Canada. Don't forget even if you do in many cases you may not have the right to do so. Rheinmetall (or KMW) may not allow you to in many cases. The upfront work to get a shop certified just to be able to look at a tank would be more that most shops could handle.

Perhaps not, but would it really be that much of a problem to train up some of the welders at Seaspan in Victoria who are already certified for military security and then add a couple more to the payroll there depending upon workload?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Not enough business to open a shop to fix tanks in Canada. Don't forget even if you do in many cases you may not have the right to do so. Rheinmetall (or KMW) may not allow you to in many cases. The upfront work to get a shop certified just to be able to look at a tank would be more that most shops could handle.

Issue an RFI to the North American auto industry and see what comes back.

One plant, of the dozens in US and Canada, pumps out over 1000 cars per day. It would be interesting to see what it would take to have a perpetual production line going for armoured, and other, military vehicles via Ford, GM, Dodge etc.

 

[childs56]

Who fixes the tanks that are in Edmonton/ Wainwright? Do they send them to Quebec who then ships them back to the factory? Do they have Techs who fix them at the unit lines.
I see Gagetown has a building for doing service and has a nice overhead crane.
You need a local solution. Even if you only have 20 or 30 tanks. The cost to ship all over the country to fix things would seem silly.

 

[Rifleman62]

You really mean to take jobs from Quebec?

 

[markppcli]

Who fixes the tanks that are in Edmonton/ Wainwright? Do they send them to Quebec who then ships them back to the factory? Do they have Techs who fix them at the unit lines.
I see Gagetown has a building for doing service and has a nice overhead crane.
You need a local solution. Even if you only have 20 or 30 tanks. The cost to ship all over the country to fix things would seem silly.

First and Second line are done in Edmonton, I’m not sure what the Wainwright LAV barn really gets used for as we bring out the field shops on exercise. Cranes in Edmonton, in the field the ARVs and Wrecks have often done that for pulling the pack / turret.