Canada's tanks

[MilEME09]

how many bells and whistles can you leave out without compromising ? Seems like an impossible quest

Compromises will always be made in AFV design

 

[OldSolduer]

how many bells and whistles can you leave out without compromising ? Seems like an impossible quest

I agree with your point. I reckon asking an actual tanker(s) would help.

 

[KevinB]

Compromises will always be made in AFV design

Agreed, but you can make educated ones.

I agree with your point. I reckon asking an actual tanker(s) would help.

The End User isn't always the best person from a design aspect.
Get input on what the KPP's are that are needed from their perspective, and weighting of the requirements.
Assess that also based on current and expected threats (which quite often the current users aren't necessarily familiar with, especially if some are locked behind SCI)
Then see what industry can do -

One of the pillars to the US Army NGCV portfolio is hybrid electric drive -
Now given that the M10 Booker, AMPV, and Stryker are part of that portfolio, I'm not sure of the gymnastics required to adapt some of those.

https://www.peogcs.army.mil/Portals/126/Documents/GCS-FactSheets.pdf?ver=Eq3QpnVChHmXHr6IFZXawg%3D%3D

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12094

 

[suffolkowner]

What drives the cost discrepancy between a Leo1 and a Leo2? Mechanical systems or elsewhere? Would you take a Leo 1 over a Leo2? How about Leo2A4 vs 2A8? Are the systems driving cost the ones providing the performance improvement?

 

[GR66]

You could but, I am not holding my breath on the XM-30, given the US Army has ordered a lot more AMPV turreted versions than expected, as well as the performance of the M2A2 Bradley's in Ukraine have shown it to be a much more resilient warhorse than anticipated - the only downside to the Bradley that is really noted is the 6 dismounts, (which XM-30 Mechanized Infantry Combat Vehicle - previously OMFV - doesn't really solve).

The MICV competitors have completed their CDR (Critical Design Review) and now the Army is conducting it's own --
If they pass, they will get into Prototype Build and Test Phase - which is scheduled to take 18 months - and move into a Limited User Test before the anticipated Contract Award in FY 27, and IF this goes forward first units would be delivered FY29.

So given the AMPV is replacing the M113 in the US Army (and probably elsewhere) I think the Bradley chassis is a sound option still for the M109 and MLRS.

I do very much like the AMPV but alas, for Canada it has one fatal flaw...it's not a GDLS product. Domestic production of AFV's gives the CA the best chance of keeping its fleet at least reasonably current (something like a National Shipbuilding Strategy for AFVs) while foreign purchases are only likely to happen once the existing fleet is on its last legs.

I guess it wouldn't be impossible to negotiate with BAE to build an AFV production facility in Canada and there would be some great potential synergies with them across a whole range of systems for the Canadian military beyond the River-Class - AMPV/Bradley or CV90, M109, Archer, BvS10, ammunition, Mk41 VLS, APKWS guidance kits for 70mm rockets, etc., etc., etc. - but I have a tough time imagining the political will being there to cut out GDLS in favour of bringing in BAE in their place.

We will never buy enough tanks for London to be viable with Abrams builds/maintenance only. We could potentially have BAE produce tracked AFVs for the Reg Force and shift the LAVs to the Reserves but that would require a tectonic shift in the way the CA organizes the Reserves and I just don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[KevinB]

What drives the cost discrepancy between a Leo1 and a Leo2? Mechanical systems or elsewhere?

Availability, Age of the system, Gun and of course market demand.
No one is building Leo1's anymore, so most are coming from armies old stock that may or may not be viable platforms without major rework.

Would you take a Leo 1 over a Leo2? How about Leo2A4 vs 2A8? Are the systems driving cost the ones providing the performance improvement?

A8's are new production L55 cannon, and the FCS can fire the DM11 Programable munition like the Abrams.
The A8 has more passive protection systems as well as the Trophy APS - so combination of performance improvements.

 

[KevinB]

I do very much like the AMPV but alas, for Canada it has one fatal flaw...it's not a GDLS product. Domestic production of AFV's gives the CA the best chance of keeping its fleet at least reasonably current (something like a National Shipbuilding Strategy for AFVs) while foreign purchases are only likely to happen once the existing fleet is on its last legs.

I guess it wouldn't be impossible to negotiate with BAE to build an AFV production facility in Canada and there would be some great potential synergies with them across a whole range of systems for the Canadian military beyond the River-Class - AMPV/Bradley or CV90, M109, Archer, BvS10, ammunition, Mk41 VLS, APKWS guidance kits for 70mm rockets, etc., etc., etc. - but I have a tough time imagining the political will being there to cut out GDLS in favour of bringing in BAE in their place.

We will never buy enough tanks for London to be viable with Abrams builds/maintenance only. We could potentially have BAE produce tracked AFVs for the Reg Force and shift the LAVs to the Reserves but that would require a tectonic shift in the way the CA organizes the Reserves and I just don't see that happening any time soon.

I hate the Reg / Res concept - and think a Hybrid force is the only way truly forward for Canada.
That said, if you look at vehicle demands for the CA in a 2 Bde Armoured force, and a 2 Bde Motorized (LAV) force (and ignoring the 2 LI Bde's)
You could easily have a GOCO Government JV GDLS Abrams-X facility in say Medicine Hat that is setup to build 30 tanks a month, and run a 7-8 tank/month maintenance line, a similar setup with BAE to make several different AMPV/Bradley based systems, and keep GDLS-London open.

Canada needs at least 300 tanks in my opinion to have operational units, training spares, and a limited war reserve -- that is enough to get a factory running -- then just needs to keep replacements going, and help with some FMS sales from LIMA.

 

[suffolkowner]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1887083786933829959

a thread on the italian MBT program
new hulls and italian engine