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Canadian Economics 101

rw4th said:
My point in bringing up taxation was this:

Social programs cost money, a lot of it, and the government gets this money through taxation. Now given the fact that social programs seem to be ever expanding,... and our population growth is going down, in 3 or 4 generations, where will the money be coming from? Do you think we will be seeing 60, 70, or even 80% taxation levels? And what effect would that level of taxation have on the economy?

If you don't see this happening, then explain to me where else the money will come from?

Obviously with a reduced population, the cost of social programs will be less.

I would also challenge you on your assertion that Social Programs are 'ever expanding'. It really depends on where you live. Yes, Federal Programs (not Social Programs, that is the responsibility of the Provinces) do tend to increase in scope over time, such as Compassionate Care Benefits (EI), but actual Social Programs in BC have been cut since 2001 when the Gordon Campbell Liberals came to power. You'd have to do a province-province comparison to see if in fact 'Social Programs' are 'ever expanding', which I suspect you have not (and neither have I).
 
Caesar said:
Obviously with a reduced population, the cost of social programs will be less.

Wrong.

The challenge of "expanding" public social programs is that demographics means that all of these programs will grow in scope and costs in absolute terms because while people may be having less children, meaning less growth, the percentage of the population requiring rather then contributing to the tax base will grow.  Demographic trends show that there will be a reduction in the ratio of working people (who contribute with their income) to elderly people (who draw on the system through CPP, increased reliance on HealthCare, Old Age Pension).

I think the ration today is roughly 3:1 in terms of workers:elderly (I'll have to check on that), but that ratio is gradually falling.   We have trouble maintaining a credible social net now with the taxes collected of a ratio like that - how do you think things will work when the ratio becomes 2:1 or 1:1?   R4W is bang on with his point.
 
You are right Infanteer - there is a big problem on the horizon due to the upcoming shift in worker:pensioner ration, not to mention that people are living longer. However, that was not the point that was put forward by rw4th. The point was, as our population DECREASES, the cost goes up. If you take the decrease to the extreme, like a decreses to 10 million or less, I suspect that the cost per capita would in fact go up. But a modest decrease in population should not significantly increase the cost per Canadian.

And again, Social Programs are Provincial, where as we are speaking (primarily) of Federal Programs (EI, CPP, OAS, ect). Health Care being the exception.

Question: what should be done to prepare for the massive funding crisis to the ISP fund? (That includes CPP, OAS, etc.)
 
I think the "worker" crunch is going to come up before trends in global population decine, so it is a more relevent issue.

As for "social programs" terminology, I think the general context that we use it in is that a social program is a public delivered service in place of private means.
 
As for "social programs" terminology, I think the general context that we use it in is that a social program is a public delivered service in place of private means.

I agree with that.

Population growth is decreasing, meaning there less â Å“new peopleâ ? - by birth or immigration - almost every year. The cost of social programs will not go down, it will only go up (look at every socialistic country out there and will find very high taxation levels that keep climbing every year). This is not only due to people getting old, but the general feeling of â Å“entitlementâ ? socialist communities foster, meaning every generation will want more and more â Å“free stuffâ ? from the government. 

So what happens when taxation gets to high? Amongst other things people have less money to spend, which affects the economy, which causes increased un-employment, which means the government needs more money to pay EI and/or re-training programs, so they raises taxes, and round and around it goes.

So where does it all lead? Anybody?
 
Caesar said:
So I ask: What do we do about the impending funding crisis?

Move away from social-cushion cash cows which are beginning to become unstable now.
 
rw4th said:
So what happens when taxation gets to high?

People leave in search of Greener pastures.   That is why CivU's reference to progressive taxation is off-base (and why I stuck it in the economics 101 thread).   Progressive income tax is silly and undemocratic.   Not only does it "penalize" higher income earners (60,000k +) by making them pay more (in relative terms) then other citizens, but it seems hypocritical to tell people that they will be regarded equally in terms of rights and freedoms, equality before the law, etc, etc as a democratic system but then turn around and tell them that they have to contribute more (in relative terms) then others - odd way of doing business.   Considering people who earn over 60,000k a year pay over 55% of all income tax collected, it would be foolish to drive them away to the Caymen Islands (or the United States) in an effort to support an ever-increasing Social-Cushion bill.

The analogy at the beginning of the thread is a good one.
 
In practical terms there are limits to the taxes people will endure. Push them high enough, and there will be more activity under the table - unreported transactions, direct barter of skills and services.

Among those who retire, most have means of some sort and will continue to pay some taxes on the income they obtain from investments.

In the worker:retiree ratio, what really matters for government revenue purposes is the gross income of the workers.  On the face of it, it seems fewer workers should mean a drop in that number.  However, if the work force does shrink substantially it is going to be a seller's market for labour.  People should be able to command higher wages for a given job, or move up to better incomes as positions are vacated by retirees.  In fact I think it likely a great many retirees are going to continue with second (or third, etc) careers after "retirement", albeit not as intensely.  I am not convinced the tax base is going to collapse relative to the burdens to be borne.
 
I think there are a number of things going on here.

First, 20 years ago, income in retirement came in two forms: CPP or a company pension. I don't know about you, but I am not relying on CPP/OAS to get me by when I'm old and codgy. I also have a good Fed Gov pension (same one as the Reg force), but I still would like to have RRSP's (I keep on meaning to get those!).

Second, people are working longer. As the life expectancy increases, our ability to work goes up. My dad is 66, he tried to retire but couldn't do it. He got too bored. Of course, there are people who retire at 55 (like my father-in-law, former High School teacher), but generally, those are people who prepared to do that for years. Unfortunately, the increase in average retirement age will not match the increase in life expectancy, IMHO, so there will be a 'net loss'.


Solutions:

The Government needs to continue to promote RRSPs and the like, and continue to offer good tax breaks for those that prepare for their own retirement. There is no way that we can maintain the current system if everyone relies on CPP.

Continued pressure from the Provincial governments to get welfare recipients who are capable of work back into the workforce. The system is designed to allow people who can't work to live. It is not designed to pay those who don't feel like working, or who can't hold down a job (through no fault of their own). We can't afford the cost of welfare, and we can't afford the loss of taxes their work represents.

We need to be open to change regarding CPP/OAS.
 
Brad Sallows said:
In the worker:retiree ratio, what really matters for government revenue purposes is the gross income of the workers.  On the face of it, it seems fewer workers should mean a drop in that number.  However, if the work force does shrink substantially it is going to be a seller's market for labour.  People should be able to command higher wages for a given job, or move up to better incomes as positions are vacated by retirees.

But with less people, can we assume that people will automatically step up to vacant positions by increasing their skill sets.  If 20 teachers retire, are we going to assume that of the 15 eligible to step into teachers positions, the 3-5 who are Starbucks employees are going to have the desire/ability to train up to that level.  As well, do you think that the ability to command a higher wage will be sustainable with the shrinking "worker:pensioner" ration?  It seems that at some point, a company will no longer be able to keep up with increased income demands by a smaller workforce because it can only bring in an absolute number in terms of income (based on the overall market size).

Did that make sense?

The point of expanding the years of a work force is a good one though.  I already see stories of people complaining about manadtory retirement ages and proposals to kick the Retirement Age up to 69-70.  As people are healthier in more advanced age, the desire to be productive for longer will get stronger (being unemployed can be boring).
 
Caesar said:
Solutions:

The Government needs to continue to promote RRSPs and the like, and continue to offer good tax breaks for those that prepare for their own retirement. There is no way that we can maintain the current system if everyone relies on CPP.

Continued pressure from the Provincial governments to get welfare recipients who are capable of work back into the workforce. The system is designed to allow people who can't work to live. It is not designed to pay those who don't feel like working, or who can't hold down a job (through no fault of their own). We can't afford the cost of welfare, and we can't afford the loss of taxes their work represents.

We need to be open to change regarding CPP/OAS.

You won't find me disagreeing with anything you've proposed here.
 
Infanteer: some of my posts were moved here, but the point I am (or was) trying to make is still in the "Flavours od Democracy" thread. I'm trying to explain why I beleive that unchecked socialism will always turn into complete wealth redistribution and a totalitarian government to enforce it. Unfortunately most of the relevant posts seem to still be over in the other thread.
 
I figured that the "nuts-and-bolts" discussion of taxation that you were right to bring up would be better in a seperate thread so as to not see the original thread disappear in the specifics of finding funding for Canadian government programs.

I wanted to keep the "Flavour of Democracy" thread, along with your original posts, more focussed on the "Social" vs the "Independent" citizen, which seems to be the thrust of the discussion there.
 
A look at three major trends that changed economics for the better during our lifetimes:

The Triumph of Economic Technology
Three 20th century advances that changed the world.

technology n, 1. the practical application of knowledge especially in a particular area

When the word â Å“technologyâ ? pops up in conversation people usually envision computers, cell phones, artificial body parts, and mechanical devices that improve our standards of living either through productivity advances or by solving problems that were perceived to be impossible to solve. In the lead-up to, and start of, the 21st century, spending on technology solved the Y2K problem. But technology investment to avoid the implications of a Y2K crash was so extensive that companies subsequently postponed normal technology investments. The unexpected slowdown in demand for computer technology led to the bursting of the so-called â Å“tech bubble.â ? The same technology that gave us the bull market of the late 1990s triggered a major crash in technology stocks and contributed to the first U.S. recession of the 21st century.

In a broader sense, technological advances have not been limited to the private sector. New principles derived from extensive economic research have provided the basis for radical economic policies that have allowed the U.S. to reassert its global economic leadership. In the course of this process, the tools used to guide economies have changed. The good news is that economic technology has led to rising standards of living through increased incentives to work, save, and invest, as well as lower interest rates, low inflation, and rising free trade.

Since 1971, there have been three important advances in â Å“economic technologyâ ? that have allowed the U.S. to maintain leadership in economic policy: the removal of the gold standard, a dramatic change in monetary policy, and pro-growth tax-rate reductions. Taken together, they represent the continuing triumph of economic technology.

In 1968, President Johnson declared that the U.S. would no longer maintain the gold link among central bank transactions. In 1971 President Nixon removed the U.S. financial system from a gold standard and the related constraints of a fixed-exchange-rate monetary system. This dollar-gold link was broken.

Prior to these decisions, the U.S. was constrained in the use of fiscal policy because any perception that the U.S. budget deficit was expanding or that the Federal Reserve was printing too much money could lower the value of the dollar. But once the U.S. broke the dollar-gold link there were no longer concerns about foreign governments forcing the U.S. to deplete its gold holdings and, in turn, trigger a run on the dollar. In the modern world of floating exchange rates, the only claim that foreign holders of U.S. government securities have on the U.S. government is the payment of dollars at the maturity of those securities.

The second great advance in economic technology took place in 1981 when the Federal Reserve began to implement a new methodology in managing monetary policy. During the '60s and '70s, monetary policy was guided by a quantity rule, which required the Fed to control the growth in the money supply within arbitrary growth bands. One problem in attempting to control the money supply in this way is that any shift in the demand for money has an unintended effect on efforts to control the quantity or supply of money. When shifts in demand for money occur when the Fed is attempting to control the supply of money there can be wide swings in interest rates. These swings cause distortions in borrowing and lending relationships in the private sector. The economy suffers as a result.

The Federal Reserve's change to a price rule in the conduct of monetary policy brought stability to financial markets (although not initially) and ushered in a 24-year bull market in bonds. This policy can also be credited with nurturing a bull market in stocks that spanned two decades and has taken the Dow Jones Industrial Average from 1,000 to over 10,000. The adoption of a price rule â ” i.e., the targeting of interest rates to control inflation â ” is now commonplace among industrial countries in the conduct of monetary policy.

Prior to the 1980 election, candidate Reagan, who was behind Jimmy Carter in the polls, announced his support for a program of major tax-rate reductions to stimulate the economy. This would turn out to be the third great advance for economic technology in the 20th century. Reagan's theory contradicted the accepted wisdom that a society, intent on expanding social programs, required ever-higher tax rates on the wealthy and on high-income wage earners to finance social programs. However, Reagan's endorsement of a broad tax-rate reduction swung voters behind him. As president he followed through with two major tax-rate reductions.

Since Reagan's shift to an incentive-based tax system, the benefits of lower tax rates have been reflected in over 70 countries that followed President Reagan's lead and reduced tax rates. Today, the countries of the â Å“Newâ ? Europe â ” those who have converted from communism to capitalism â ” are leading proponents of tax-rate reductions to promote economic growth.

As the 21st century began, President George W. Bush endorsed the dynamic effects of reduced tax rates on personal income. He also initiated two major tax-rate reduction programs that were passed by Congress as a solution to the recession triggered by the technology slowdown. The second tax-rate reduction, effected in mid-2003, can be given credit for turning the worst bear market in stocks of our lifetime into a new bull market that continues today.

President Bush's second term is likely to be characterized by further changes in fiscal policy that will lower taxes for most Americans and provide additional fiscal-policy stimulus to keep the U.S. economy on a growth track. One risk to a continued strong economy and bull market is the possibility that the majority of liberal politicians, along with some traditionally conservative politicians, fail to recognize the need for deficit spending when the economy is not operating at full capacity.

Still, without the advances in economic technology during the last 35 years, we wouldn't be world leaders. The U.S. took the lead in the development and implementation of economic technology and changed the lion's share of world economies for the better.

â ” Thomas E. Nugent is executive vice president and chief investment officer of PlanMember Advisors, Inc. and chief investment officer for Victoria Capital Management, Inc.
 
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_nugent/nugent200502170850.asp
 
majoor,
An interesting article, though i don't think i would necessarily lump all three of those developments together as "technological advances".
Number 1, the end of the gold standard, was long overdue, being a major move away from 19th-century mercantilism (the quaint notion that national wealth should be measured by a single commodity, be it gold, rice, oil, head of cattle or number of paper clips). The US was forced to drop the gold standard in 1971 because of the rise of the eurodollar markets (ie, dollars traded outside US, the real innovation here), which were out of its control. (google "Bretton Woods")
Number 2, targeting interest rates, is more of a contingency than a bright new idea. what happens when interest rates fall down to near zero, as in Japan today? "quantitive" monetary policy, once again, where the central bank simply tries to increase the money supply, that's what. central banks' control of interest rates is not absolute, after all.
Number 3, tax cuts/fiscal stimulus spending. Good idea sometimes, other times not. also an article of faith for those who've already made their minds up on the subject, pro or con.

if you want to find the real economic "technology" that is changing our world, you should look to the private sector. Today's big thing is the derivatives market, which allows companies to allocate away unprecedented amounts of risk, to a degree impossible before the necessary mathematical models were developed over the past few decades.

a long-winded response to a long-winded cut-and-paste, i know, but my point is is that economics is not like particle physics. A great deal of what you read about it in the media is driven by partisanship and ideology (left and right), which is unfortunate, since it really is an interesting field, when you cut thru a lot of the bs.

as for   comparing the economic "systems" of canada/eruope/usa, they're all pretty much the same, each with their own set of compromises to suit local political tastes. the capital tends to flow to the most efficient parts of any of these economies, regardless of whether they are hampered with 35-hr workweeks, ag subsidies or excessive defence spending (unfortunately not a problem in canada).
 
I hardly disagree with you, the author's choice to call these changes "technology" was a bit puzzling to me as well.

The growth of the private sector, in particular the derivatives market is partly cause and effect: the "Big Bang" of the 80s which caused these and other markets to explode was a result of deregulation and "supply side" stimulus. Without the deregulation, these markets would not have functioned as effectively; without the tax cuts, there would be a lot less incentive for financial management companies to have moved into those fields.

Economics is a fascinating field (that is my higher education), but as you say, it is a descriptive science, which can only explain what has happened and point to general future trends. Too bad the people in power havn't taken a lot of these lessons to heart...
 
Infanteer, can you elaborate on how our progressive tax system is silly and undemocratic?
 
It all in the original post.   I find it odd that we like to look at citizens in an eqalitarian manner when it comes to treatment by the government and then we abandon that notion when it comes time for the government to help itself to the pockets of private citizens at tax time.   It only seems intuitive that everybody in a democratic system should put in equally (a flat tax, every one contributes "X" percentage of their income) to a system where they have an equal share in.

It appears that a "progressive" agenda of folks like Jack Layton is to make the country increasingly rely on the folks doing the best in the domestic economy.   Do it enough, and you'll drive them away (the analogy at the beginning of this thread is a good way to explain it).

Government won't be able to support its largess?   That's too bad.   I think someone who makes 60,000k a year will use it in a manner far more advantageous to the national economy then the government (government expenditures, as explained in Econ101, are a negative) - people who make money don't usually stick it under their mattress.

You'll most likely disagree with me, which is fine.   It really is a question of who you believe should manage a persons money - progressive income tax seems to imply that higher income earners need the government to manage more of their money for the "public good".   When you start picking up 55% of the tax burden and open the paper to sponsorship scandals, HRDC, and other fun little things, maybe you'll change your mind.
 
I think what Infanteer is suggesting would work much better then a â Å“progressiveâ ? tax system. A low flat income tax, and higher sales tax, with higher taxation rates on items considered â Å“luxuryâ ?.

When you start picking up 55% of the tax burden and open the paper to sponsorship scandals, HRDC, and other fun little things, maybe you'll change your mind.

Tell me about it   ::)
 
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