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Canadian Manoeuvre Training Centre (CMTC), Wainwright

Perhaps a solution to the reserve question could be found in those 13 dismounted suites we bought. They could be controlled centrally by the LFAs (or the regional JTFs soon, I guess  ;D ) and could be used for summer concentrations for those reservists not lucky enough to go to CMTC with a CRIC or a an augmentee. Each area would then have 2-3 suites they could use to run reserve coy gps through force-on-force training. It isn't ideal but it would go a long way to improving mo' training.

MG
 
ParaMedTech said:
Infanteer, there ARE jobs more important then the Mo.   What about the Com Res who also works for CSCE monitoring chatter, the Infantry WO who's also a Fire Dept battalion chief, or (cough) the medic who puts in 22 shifts a month in a real patient care environment.   They make greater contributions in a peace-time nation in their civilian employment then in their cadpats.   I know, from experience, how frustrating this is to junior leadership, but it's a bigger issue then at the coal face, and requires a national solution.

That being said, those people who are incapable of foresight in scheduling their work and school lives should reevaluate their commitments to the CF, or have it reevaluated for them.

Now, if we can commit to Mo training time at CMTC well in advance, and stick to it, perhaps attendance can become a litmus test of the reservist and the unit's abilities.

I know, but I am (seriously) talking about swapping Starbucks for the area concentration.

You said what I said, time to reevaluate priorities.  If your job is really important (like the one you mentioned) and your attendence is going to be spotty, then perhaps it is time to get out and quit taking up the position.
 
Some good thinking on the dismounted WES gear.   Hopefully, it can be booked by and delivered to local units for some of their training during the year.  Advantages: The normal WES ones, plus building interest and familiarity with the kit.  Disadvantages: Could become the sole focus ('Lets have a WES-EX'), rather than just a trg tool, and actually detract from trg if used improperly.  You know what I mean: Serials to Fort Knox being devised solely as a PX visit, etc.

Tom
 
Mortar guy said:
Perhaps a solution to the reserve question could be found in those 13 dismounted suites we bought. They could be controlled centrally by the LFAs (or the regional JTFs soon, I guess   ;D ) and could be used for summer concentrations for those reservists not lucky enough to go to CMTC with a CRIC or a an augmentee. Each area would then have 2-3 suites they could use to run reserve coy gps through force-on-force training. It isn't ideal but it would go a long way to improving mo' training.

As I recall, that was the original idea:  1 suite for CTC, 9 x CBGs, 3 x CMBGs = 13 suites...  I gather, though, that LFDTS is reluctant to lose control of both the equipment and the training.  The suites may well be available for "sign out".  Watch and shoot.

As for two types of Reservists, my experience tells me that the problem is MUCH worse with Sr NCOs and officers than with the soldiers.  There's still a lot of "Old Militia" out there who seem (for reasons that escape me) to look down on those with tours, etc..  Where it becomes an issue is when one of these "old" guys suddenly realizes - after 20+ years flopping - that having a tour is a good thing for promotion and begins to clamour to go overseas - without the experience or ability to be gainfully employed on operations.  But I digress...   ;D
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
There's still a lot of "Old Militia" out there who seem (for reasons that escape me) to look down on those with tours, etc..  Where it becomes an issue is when one of these "old" guys suddenly realizes - after 20+ years flopping - that having a tour is a good thing for promotion and begins to clamour to go overseas - without the experience or ability to be gainfully employed on operations.  But I digress...   ;D

I am one of those "Old Militia" types who screamed to get a tour for over 10 years but, because of my rank, I was always denied.  Finally I got one and was surprised to see the reaction of my peers: envy.  I think a lot more senior Reservists would go on tour if they had a guarantee that they would be coming home to thier old civvie job.  I know this has been discussed to death in other threads, but that is the single biggest reason I've heard from my peer group for not going on a tour. (No. 2 is "My wife would kill me!)

Taking this one step farther, I'd bet that many more senior reservists would go to CMTC as Coy/Sqn/Bty HQ staff if there was more incentive to be there.  Remember the old CRE?  The Unit Viability Assesments?  Regiments would pull out all the stops to get soldiers out on those because thier futures hung in the balance.  There was incentive not to fail, but there was little to no reward for success (other than survival).  It was not a fun time in the Reserves to be constantly living in the shadow of the sword, even if you aced your CRE the previous year.

Failure at CMTC should be a warning that things need to be imporved.  Continued failure should result in a change of leadership.  Success, however, should be rewarded.  That's something we're not very good at.
 
Infanteer, the surest sign of intelligence is the degree to which someone agrees with you  ;D

Haggis, spot on...

We can have all the jammy training available to the reserves, if we can't get our people out to it, it doesn't make a lick of difference.


DF
 
I know that BTE 05 is supposed to be the last BTE and from then on it will be BG lvl validations.  However, if in 5 years the army decides it needs Bde exercises again, will CMTC have the resources to sp such a large scale ex?
 
Another concern with reducing the size of these ex is that we lose the institutional experience in moving, feeding, supplying, and otherwise supporting those numbers of pers.  We've already lost a fair amount here in the west with the demise of Western Challenge, which I think was probably reflected on Active Edge 04. 

While we're training up the pointy end with these, are we letting our tail whither away in capability?  Once we've lost this knowledge as an institution, how costly is it going to be to regain it?

Can we simulate supporting a larger force with these serials in any meaningful way, and are the serials going to be long enough to tax the logistics support these troops are going to need in places like Kandahar, without the option of sending CQ's running down to Canadian Tire for more widgets?

Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics


DF
 
"Another concern with reducing the size of these ex is that we lose the institutional experience in moving, feeding, supplying, and otherwise supporting those numbers of pers.  We've already lost a fair amount here in the west with the demise of Western Challenge, which I think was probably reflected on Active Edge 04"

-We lost most of that in 1993, When we pulled 4CMBG out of Germany.  No longer would we deploy sub-units as part of units operating in a Bde that was operating in a (US or GE) Div operating in a (US or GE) Corps.  We no longer mnvr with the adult Armies, and it shows.  (Some of those formerly 'Adult'armies aren't doing so good either).

-On the minus side as well, we now have commanders who have never had to do their operational ('Real" as compared to garrison/administrative) job with several levels of bosses breathing down their necks, in an environment and at a pace they themselves do not control.  That is much more alarming than Johnny not getting enough C77 Ball last year.

Tom
 
I'm not saying this is a new phenomenon, but it's another sign of the ongoing degredation of capabilities.

DF
 
'Laser tag' prepares troops for front lines
Training program at CFB Wainwright means more troops, $500 million in improvements

Jim Farrell
The Edmonton Journal
03 Jul 05


EDMONTON - Laser tag never had this much pizzazz.

In April 2006, 1,000 Canadian soldiers will arrive at Camp Wainwright to fight a month-long bloodless battle involving lasers galore to simulate real warfare. Many soldiers liken the simulation more to Star Wars. And with good reason.  When a beam from an enemy's laser-rigged rifle touches a soldier, he may "die." He may be badly or only slightly wounded. It all depends on which of the 14 detectors on his helmet or battle vest the beam brushes.  If his computerized battle vest determines he has been killed, a red light will flash and a speaker in his vest will emit an annoying buzz. The sound won't stop until he lies down and plays dead.

A radio in his vest will beam news of his death back to a building filled with computers, transmission and receiving systems, training staff and a large theatre where commanders and instructors can watch the action in real time. Later, they can run the tapes to see how the soldier died, as they try to understand what he could have done to survive. 

The technological bag of ticks at the Combat Manoeuvre Training Centre at Wainwright, 180 kilometres southeast of Edmonton, doesn't stop there, Capt. Tom St. Denis says.  "If the soldier is just injured, the speaker will tell him he is injured and how badly, " says St. Denis, the CMTC's media relations officer.  If the soldier is lightly wounded, he will still be able to fire a blank round with his rifle and the rifle's laser unit will send a blast of light where he is aiming. If his computer decides he is critically wounded, his rifle won't fire but it can be picked up and fired by one of his buddies. The rifle will talk to that healthy soldier's vest and determine it's been handed off.  Meanwhile, the critically injured soldier will begin to "die."

"If you are critically injured, your life timer starts to tick down," says St. Denis. "It tells you how many minutes of life you have left but there are certain things you can do that will retard the unit."  If a medic comes along, the medic can indicate to the injured soldier's vest-computer that he has performed an intervention.  "The life timer will be retarded but it's still ticking down so his buddies will have to stabilize the injured soldier and get him out of the field."

This computerized system will be able to replicate virtually anything that happens on the battlefield. When artillery takes aim, the electronic equivalent of a cannon round flies downrange. At least, that's what the computers back at the centre's Exercise Control Facility (EXCON) believe.  The computers decide the theoretical effects of the resulting blast and display the results on training-staff monitors, and perhaps in real-time on a big screen. Any soldiers within the killing area of the virtual blast hear from the speakers in their instrumented vests that they are dead.

"The actual planning for this system started about a decade ago," says Brig. Gen. Stuart Beare, who will oversee the system as the army's head of Land Force Doctrine and Training from his new headquarters in Kingston.  "In simple terms, it's the 'laser tag' system of the 21st century which allows us to simulate direct fire such as rifle and tank fire, indirect fire such as mortars, artillery and hand grenades plus chemical, biological and radiological threats," says Beare, who until recently was head of Land Force Western Area.

When they arrive at the CMTC, each infantry soldier will be issued a rifle equipped with a laser transmitter and a vest filled with electronic gear that is hooked up to a special helmet. The vest carries a satellite tracking unit so the data centre knows where the soldier is. An electronic receiver-transmitter unit will tell the centre's computers everything the soldier does or whatever is done to him. Tanks, armoured personnel carriers, even trucks and jeeps will be similarly equipped.

If a tank takes a virtual hit, the effects of the anti-tank round will be assessed by sensors attached to the skin of the tank. The tank's crew may then be told their vehicle can no longer move but it can still fire its gun. They may be told their tank can still move but it can no longer fire its gun or it can no longer communicate because its radios have been destroyed.  In the worst case they will be told their tank has been destroyed, a status that will be signalled to everyone in the area by a flashing red light on top of the tank.

The monitors mounted on soldiers' vests or on their battle vehicles may tell them all manner of bad news. They may be told they have been killed by a poison gas attack. They may be told a booby-trap bomb has exploded beside their vehicle. They and their vehicle must then play dead or pretend they are disabled, whatever the computers tell them.

The vest-mounted soldier systems were tested at Wainwright last November. This November, there will be trials for the vehicle-borne systems.

"In April of next year, the area and direct fire systems -- the whole enchilada -- will be operational," says Beare.  When that happens, the first 1,000-soldier battle group will arrive to begin four weeks of realistic battlefield training.

The CMTC may also field up to 500 "environmental actors" to simulate all manner of situations. Some of those actors -- usually full-time instructors -- will represent enemy soldiers. Some may play the part of terrorists or militia and dress in the civilian clothes of countries like Afghanistan. Other actors will represent civilian non-combatants, the kind of people soldiers are supposed to spare rather than kill.  "Anyone can attack a farmhouse populated by bad guys," St. Denis says. "That's what we practised for during the Cold War. Now, we have to go into environments where we find both bad people and good people, and you don't want to alienate the good people.  "This kind of warfare takes more than just firepower," says St. Denis.

Battlefield simulations at Wainwright's CMTC will involve all manner of vehicles. By this fall, 400-plus fighting vehicles will be stationed there. Most are members of the LAV (Light Armoured Vehicle) family, the kind of lightweight fighting vehicles the army will use if it has to deploy to the other side of the world in fleets of military air transports. There will also be more than 300 land transport vehicles available for training exercises.

Battle groups will get 28 days to practise the tactics they would use in the field. 

Whether the training is by day or night, the actions of every soldier will be monitored electronically and assessed to determine who's winning, who's losing and who is making mistakes. 

While commanders play back tapes at the assessment centre, soldiers in the field will also benefit from instant replay, St. Denis says. Observer controllers will erect tents near small-unit actions, set up projectors and capture data from the battle action.  "After a section of 10 men or a platoon of 30-odd soldiers practises something like an attack on a village or town or a townhouse, the controller can say 'stop,' set up the projector and the guys can crowd into the tent to see how things went," St. Denis says.

A wide range of environments are being built to simulate areas where soldiers may be asked to fight or simply patrol and keep the peace. Tunnel and cave systems and even a "terrorist village" are being constructed. Wainwright is also getting new barracks and mess halls for the increasing number of soldiers who will train there as well as new married quarters for its expanded training staff. This type of training facility doesn't come cheap. By 2011, the cost of all new equipment and infrastructure plus the cost of operating the system will amount to $500 million.

Beare says Canada can't afford not to spend the money.

"The most advanced western countries already have this kind of training facility," he says. "The British Army has it in Suffield. The U.S. Army has it in Fort Polk Louisiana and at the National Training Center in California. "But by accident or by design, because we are entering into this technology at this stage we are getting the latest and greatest."
 
Anyone know the status of CMTC, haven't heard much of it as of lately, with all the chats about task force's & army transformation....

Thanks in advance....
 
I guess we are still here. SAT II is in full bloom.  Ran right through the wknd, and I go on shift up the hill at EXCON in 24 minutes... gotta go.

Tom
 
I know a tiny bit (received a briefing from an MWO from there as part of Professional Development last week), but you should wait for TCBF to weigh in, as he is "in the sh!t", so to speak. In other words, he works there, so it won't be a post of "I know a guy, who knows a guy, who HEARD.....".

From what I heard/saw, it's pretty impressive, and I think it'll bring our military (joint ops are possible) up more than a few notches in the ability scale. Should be interesting to see in action.

Al
 
I'm sure it will eventually be a great place for training, but so far, it doesn't hack.  I was there for the validation of FO 01-06 (1 PPCLI) and FO 02-06 (2 R22R).  The FIBUA training was in sea containers, the scenarios were poorly set up, the organization was brutal.  You can see that there was a lot of effort to get this going, but there's a long way to go yet...Hopefully it will be better for the next groups that pass through in April 
 
Insert Quote
I'm sure it will eventually be a great place for training, but so far, it doesn't hack.  I was there for the validation of FO 01-06 (1 PPCLI) and FO 02-06 (2 R22R).  The FIBUA training was in sea containers, the scenarios were poorly set up, the organization was brutal.  You can see that there was a lot of effort to get this going, but there's a long way to go yet...Hopefully it will be better for the next groups that pass through in April 

Thanks for you 2 cents Mr First Time Poster.
 
"I'm sure it will eventually be a great place for training, but so far, it doesn't hack.  I was there for the validation of FO 01-06 (1 PPCLI) and FO 02-06 (2 R22R).  The FIBUA training was in sea containers, the scenarios were poorly set up, the organization was brutal.  You can see that there was a lot of effort to get this going, but there's a long way to go yet...Hopefully it will be better for the next groups that pass through in April "

- A brutal assessment, but not entirely without merit.

I Just got off shift at EXCON as the HICON/TFHQ desk.  Some pretty vigorous genetic selection going on west of the Battle River as we speak.  Good points collected all around.  Do some of the scenarios still need a bit of work?  Yep. Are there still tech issues?  Yep.  Will it be frustrating at times for soldiers coming through (and the ones posted here)? Yep.

But as every week goes by, it gets a bit better.

Tom
 
Are you going to be ready for SAT III?  Is it still the intention to test the system to the max in vehicles and personnel? Final stupid question, how much does the weather affect the system, in that I mean are there restrictions to when you can run TFs through and when you can't?

Sandbag
 
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