Canadian River Class Destroyer Megathread

[Czech_pivo]

We might be a little hard on Davie.

Agreement signed with Irving in 2011, first ship delivered by Irving in 2020: 9 years. Agreement signed with Seaspan in 2012, first delivery in 2017: 5 years (a simpler ship).

Agreement signed with Davie in 2023, and the first ship on their list is the largest non-nuclear icebreaker in the world, and we are only three years into it. Can we point at where the other two yards were at in the third year after signing their agreement?

Hmmm, we can’t go back to Asterisx?

 

[YZT580]

We might be a little hard on Davie.

Agreement signed with Irving in 2011, first ship delivered by Irving in 2020: 9 years. Agreement signed with Seaspan in 2012, first delivery in 2017: 5 years (a simpler ship).

Agreement signed with Davie in 2023, and the first ship on their list is the largest non-nuclear icebreaker in the world, and we are only three years into it. Can we point at where the other two yards were at in the third year after signing their agreement?

not entirely a fair comparison. Their first ship design had already been accepted apart from whatever tweeks they have put into it and it is indeed under construction: in Helsinki. The completed hull will be dragged across the Atlantic for those finishing touches.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Hmmm, we can’t go back to Asterisx?

No, because Asterix was a one off self created product that nobody else thought to offer at the time, but not part of the NSS at all and required no "shipyard upgrade to NSS levels".

 

[Nvlgzr]

Hmmm, we can’t go back to Asterisx?

No. The government had decided that 2 companies in NSS were adequate at the time. As we all know; Asterix happened because the navy was in a hard place with the loss of Protectuer and Preserver and the failure of the government to provide replacement a decade earlier. If it wasn’t for Vice Admiral Norman , Asterix wouldn’t have happened and almost didn’t happen because of spineless PM Sox. Here we are 12 years later and still don’t have a permanent replacement in service.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

not entirely a fair comparison. Their first ship design had already been accepted apart from whatever tweeks they have put into it and it is indeed under construction: in Helsinki. The completed hull will be dragged across the Atlantic for those finishing touches.

I think it's fair: The other yards had years to upgrade their facilities, but you are not willing to give Davie a similar amount of time to upgrade theirs. I bet you don't know what they have done to date to upgrade them since getting the Agreement signed.

 

[Nvlgzr]

I think it's fair: The other yards had years to upgrade their facilities, but you are not willing to give Davie a similar amount of time to upgrade theirs. I bet you don't know what they have doe to date to upgrade them since getting the Agreement signed.

Note Irving is upgrading their facilities again for River class production

 

[Nvlgzr]

I think it's fair: The other yards had years to upgrade their facilities, but you are not willing to give Davie a similar amount of time to upgrade theirs. I bet you don't know what they have done to date to upgrade them since getting the Agreement signed.

I think what bothers people about Davie is that a major part of the build for CCGS Arpatuuq is offshore and the uncertainty about how much of the Program Icebreakers will be built offshore.

 

[DBNSG]

I think what bothers people about Davie is that a major part of the build for CCGS Arpatuuq is offshore and the uncertainty about how much of the Program Icebreakers will be built offshore.

Exactly, it seems Davie gets to play by a different set of Rules. Set by them and ignore Ottawa but take the Cheque

 

[YZT580]

I think it's fair: The other yards had years to upgrade their facilities, but you are not willing to give Davie a similar amount of time to upgrade theirs. I bet you don't know what they have done to date to upgrade them since getting the Agreement signed.

I am totally willing to give them credit for any improvements and I don't know what improvements they have made. But whatever they have done, they still aren't building Canadian ships in Canada: yet. I was simply saying that they are off and running because they haven't needed to incorporate the improvements needed to start systematic production of their allotment but are relying on a yard that is able to actually build something. Unfortunately it isn't in Canada. If Irving had contracted or bought out and used a facility in Romania I am sure we could have had the first Harry DeWolf much sooner: but they didn't. Instead they built it here but only after they made the improvements. Plus the plans hadn't been approved which is a problem that Davie didn't have to deal with. Irving didn't get the contract approval until 2015. From there they laid the keel in 2016, launched in 2018 and commissioned in 2021: not unusual for first of class. I will sit back and allow Davie to rise or fall from this point forward but I won't denigrate The other two yards or puff up Davie's achievements. Neither deserve it.

 

[Stoker]

I think what bothers people about Davie is that a major part of the build for CCGS Arpatuuq is offshore and the uncertainty about how much of the Program Icebreakers will be built offshore.

Davie did have a very large piece of Asterix built in Finland and floated over to accelerate timelines to access those sweet lease monies.

 

[Underway]

FIFY.
Ontario Shipyards getting NSS getting work is non starter. Seaspan and Davie are going to need work in 8-10 years and therefore I would expect the CDC to be pushed out till then to avoid the valley of death. The alternative would be to suspend build of Rivers after Mackenzie .

Well lets break it down.

Seaspan has a Polar Class Icebreaker to finish after the 2 JSS (which are about 1.5 years out for both). Then they have 16ish Medium Icebreakers to build. The calculation is approx 12 more years of work.

Davie needs to finish their Polar Class (2030), and have 6 program Icebreakers after that (building till 2038) so that's also 12 years for them (also have some ferries and such going on).

Irving has 15 RCD's to complete which is going to take them about 20 years from this point. First delivery is 2032 and one every year after that... or so.

So given the above none of the major shipyards have any obvious spare capacity at their main yards. That leaves other yards to build FASST-V and CDC. CDC also has the discussion of being split between multiple yards (likely two). Where they build 3 ships each and based on performance get more of them. The next largest yard in the country is Ontario Shipyards. And Ontario is the place most negatively effected by the current economic situation. Based on this I think Ontario Shipyards has a good chance at building FASST-V at a minimum and likely could get partial contract for the CDC.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I think it's fair: The other yards had years to upgrade their facilities, but you are not willing to give Davie a similar amount of time to upgrade theirs. I bet you don't know what they have done to date to upgrade them since getting the Agreement signed.

Very true.
They have to biggest facilités overall I think just old and out of date?

 

[Rainbow1910]

No. The government had decided that 2 companies in NSS were adequate at the time.

It was more like Davie was in absolutely no state to participate in NSS at that time, and arguably isn't entirely there at this point either.

 

[Rainbow1910]

I think it's fair: The other yards had years to upgrade their facilities, but you are not willing to give Davie a similar amount of time to upgrade theirs. I bet you don't know what they have done to date to upgrade them since getting the Agreement signed.

I'd be willing to give them more slack if their parent company wasn't galivanting off in foreign nations buying up shipyards there compared to pushing effort at home. They've had that federal ferry contract spinning with basically no results for years, no consequences. Mix this in with a pretty aggressive media campaign and I find the results behind their bluster questionable.

From what I've been told from people I know who've been there recently, the Levis yard looks like it was lifted from a Mad Max movie.

Davie talked a huge game trying to muscle their way into the NSS, only to go entirely silent and apparently be unable to even deliver a pair of ferries to Transport Canada after gobbling up a bunch of money from the Quebec Government. At this point, Davie seems less interested in bringing its Canadian operation up to speed and getting on with its NSS contracts, and more interested in buying foreign shipyards to boost their overall profit abroad. They've already began farming out work that should be done in Canada to their new Finnish Helsinki yard for their Polar Icebreaker, to the point that we don't actually know how much work on this ship will actually be done in Canada.

Davie has 1 Polar Icebreaker and 6 Program Icebreakers, the latter is being farmed out abroad seemingly and the former haven't been started. Before we start talking about handing them CDC work, maybe they should get to work finishing their yard work and working on what they've already been given?

Commande de deux traversiers | La construction se fait attendre chez Davie

Pendant qu’il grandit en Finlande et aux États-Unis, Davie est enlisé dans un important contrat ici. Six ans après avoir obtenu une commande de Transports Canada pour deux traversiers parce qu’il était considéré comme le seul à pouvoir remettre la marchandise à temps, le chantier maritime de...

www.lapresse.ca

At the time, Ottawa cited the urgency of obtaining two ferries quickly to justify its decision to award the contract directly to Davie, without going through a traditional competitive tender.

This case, which concerns a contract worth several hundred million, dates back to 2019. The ferries Madeleine, which connects the islands of the same name to Prince Edward Island, and Holiday Island, which connects Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, are nearing the end of their useful life.

They "must be replaced as quickly as possible", announced the federal notice.

"Davie is the only Canadian shipyard that has the capacity to design two ro-ro passenger ferries of more than 80 metres within the requested timeframe," the document said, justifying its decision to do business with the Quebec shipyard.

At the time, the agreement came at the right time for the Quebec shipyard. The latter was still a few years away from being included in the National Shipbuilding Strategy, which guarantees the construction of icebreakers for the Coast Guard.

Since then, Davie has been thinking big. He was promised $630 million by the Legault government to modernize his Lévis shipyard in addition to buying a shipyard in Finland at a cost of $100 million. He also wants to invest up to $1 billion in Texas to build icebreakers there.

According to the federal documents we consulted, the delivery schedules had already been established: 2026 for the successor to the Madeleine (MV Jean-Lapierre) and 2027 for the successor to the Holiday Island. These targets seem utopian and no one dares to put forward new dates.

Notes prepared for Transport Canada's federal deputy minister, Arun Thangaraj, as part of an appearance before a parliamentary committee last June, did not provide any details.

"The delivery date is under discussion with Davie," they say.

In an email exchange with La Presse, Transport Canada finally indicated on Friday that the delivery years that appeared in the contract award notice were "provisional and subject to change." The precise reasons behind the changes, however, have not been specified despite our requests.

This turn of events forced Transport Canada to procure two replacement ferries built abroad (Spain and Norway). Together, the two ships cost nearly $200 million.

The companies that were promised the ferries seem to have turned the page. The Coopérative de transport maritime et aérien (CTMA) was to operate the Jean-Lapierre ferry. Its general manager, Emmanuel Aucoin, no longer seems to want it.

"Our Madeleine II [the used ship] is doing a remarkable job, we can see it, it is efficient," Mr. Aucoin told the regional station CFIM last January. We don't think we're putting in any energy and we don't want the government to put it in to replace him with the Jean-Lapierre."

This isn't the first time a ferry contract has become complicated for Davie. An order for two ships with the Société des traversiers du Québec a decade ago resulted in delays and cost overruns.

To help it rejuvenate its Lévis facilities, the Legault government offered Davie $325 million in loans. La Presse revealed on October 21 that the entire amount is "forgivable," with no obligation to repay.

Irving or Seaspan would be crucified for the kind of delays and outsourcing Davie gets away with, but being a Quebec yard seems to exempt them from media scrutiny.