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Canadian Special Forces and Light Infantry in World War Two`

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Bfalcon.cf

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Hi
I'm, doing a major paper (not for skewl) on Canadian Special Forces and light infantry in World War Two. Its kinda tricky topic to research however. I have a couple of questions. First of all : a)the only two special forces type units i have found were the 1st canadian special service brigade  (the devils brigade), and the 1st Canadian parachute battalion. Can you tell me more about these units?  b) where there any other special forces units? c) what is the difference between, regiment, brigade, battalion, corps, army, etc in world war 2? like wut is the unit structure? d) what were the light infantry groups, or were they all light infantry (like also wuz canada have the most elite troops). e) if they were all light infantry, which groups would have been the best (like name the top 3). Does any1 know any good resources for this Anyhow, if you have any ww2 questions, for me i can help you out! its my pastime.
Bfalcon
 
The Pacific Coast Militia Rangers were also light infantry, though perhaps not "elite".

There is some info on the SSF at my website at www.canadiansoldiers.com - a google will find you a lot of info on the Devil's Brigade, many good websites.

Even better, invest in a few books.  Supercommandos is supposed to be good.  The Force history by Burhans is not bad either.

There are notes on organization at my site also, ie regiment, brigade, etc.  You are best advised to look at some books - Jean Bouchery's THE CANADIAN SOLDIER would be a great place to start as far as organization - or search some of the older posts here.
 
If you use Google I am sure you can find much of what you have asked.

The First Canadian Parachute Battalion was Canada's first Airborne unit, who fought as part of 3 Parachute Brigade under Brigadier James Hill, which was part of 6th UK Airborne Division of the British Army.  They ended their advance into Germany at Wismar.  Cpl Topham, whose VC and medals were just purchased from the family, was a medic in 1 Can Para.

The First Special Service Force was a joint Canada/US force.  It was originally planned by the British and was to be a combined Canada/US/UK Force, but the British pulled out before it was formed.  Most of the original personnel were also Airborne qualified. They were formed to attack the Heavy Water plants in Norway, but that plan got cancelled.  They were sent instead to attack the Japanese in the Aleutian Islands as part of a larger force.  When they arrived there, the Japanese had just left.  They were almost disbanded after that, but landed up going to fight in Sicily and Italy.  They fought at Anzio and the Canadian Bn was the first ones into liberate Rome.  When they moved on to fight in Southern France, the Canadian Bn was disbanded at Menton.

When you talk of Military Units, you will find that the smallest is the Section, of which three will add up to make a Platoon.  Three Platoons make a Company.  Three Companies will make a Battalion.  Then you take three Battalions to make a Regiment in the Infantry.  Armour, Engineer, and Artillery Units are divided up slightly different and in most cases the size of an Infantry Battalion is the same size or larger than any of the others' Regiments.  A Brigade is made up of two or three Infantry Battalions, and usually an Armour Regiment, an Artillery Regiment, an Engineer Regiment, a Service Battalion and numerous smaller support Units, such as MPs and Field Ambulances.  From here you will find that two or three Brigades will add up to make a Division, again two or three Divisions make a Corps and then the largest will be an Army.

There are lots of sources on line and at your local library that can help you in your quest. 

1 Can Para history was written under the title "Out of the Clouds"

Bernd Horn and Michel Wyczynski are writting a series of books on Canada's Airborne Forces being published by Vanwell Publishing Limited of St. Catharines, Ontario.  Their first book "In Search of Pegasus: the Canadian Airborne experience 1942 -1999" has ISBN 1-55125-039-X

GW
 
FSSF was never in Sicily - their first major action was in December 1943.  Other than that, good synopsis - "Sicily and Italy" tends to roll off the tongue so I imagine that was unintentional on your part.  ;)
 
"When you talk of Military Units, you will find that the smallest is the Section, of which three will add up to make a Platoon.  Three Platoons make a Company.  Three Companies will make a Battalion.  Then you take three Battalions to make a Regiment in the Infantry."

George I think you are a bit off on your calculations for WW II. There was a period during 1943 when at least some of the Infantry Bns were reduced to three Rifle Coys. The establishment was changed back to four Rifle Coys just prior to sailing for the invasion of Sicily plus there was a Headquarters Coy and a Support Coy.

A Regiment can have any number of Bns maybe what you meant to say was that three Bns make a Brigade.

Aye Dileas
 
Art

I was just trying to keep it relatively simple, with the minimums.  Of course we know that those numbers tended to grow.

As for three (Inf) Bn making a (Inf) Reg't that would be the case.  For instance, the Regimental HQ for the RCR is in London, with 1st and 3rd Bns in Pet and 2nd Bn in Gagetown, and then 4 RCR,which is a Reserve Unit, all making up the "Regiment".  1,2, and 3 RCR are part of 2CMBG (Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group--the "Group" meaning that it is really a "Brigade Plus" or "Heavy Brigade" in NATO terms) I also went on to state that two or more (Inf) Bn would be in a Bde along with the Armd, Arty, Engr and other support Units. 

It is sometimes hard to over simplify it much more, and sometimes comes out clear as mud.

GW
 
Here are some good links for you.............

http://army.ca/forums/threads/24284.0/all.html

http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/newspapers/canadawar/army_e.html

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Params=J1ARTJ0000307

http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/units.html

http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/newpage11.htm

http://regiments.org/default.htm

http://seconddivision.freehosting.net/second_canadian_division.htm

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=history/secondwar

http://members.aol.com/Custermen85/Units/BritishOrg.htm


Hope this helps some and maybe clear things up. They way we are organized now is not how we were organized during the 1st or 2nd World Wars.









 
Forlorn Hope said:
Here are some good links for you.............

http://seconddivision.freehosting.net/second_canadian_division.htm

This one is mine - it is actually located at my www.canadiansoldiers.com site now - I went ahead and paid for web space - that page is from the bad old days when I needed to rely on freeserver space (which stopped being free long ago...)

Weird that it is still up and running!










 
Could we merge this with your other IDENTICAL topic?

http://army.ca/forums/threads/25880.0.html

GW
 
When speaking of Canadian Special Forces does the RCN's Underwater Demolition Teams count?
 
Well, i'm not sure, see I'm tryin to find out which units were spec forces. wut did the demo team do? if they activiely fought the enemy and were highly trained, then i would suppose so
 
Bfalcon.cf said:
Well, i'm not sure, see I'm tryin to find out which units were spec forces. wut did the demo team do? if they activiely fought the enemy and were highly trained, then i would suppose so

Define "highly trained".  Just about every unit that went into combat in Sicily, Italy or NW Europe was "highly trained".

Perhaps you need to come up with a working definition first.
 
highly trained as in over and above the training of the regular soldiers. -longer durational training, -harder training, -better calibre soldiers, -generally volunteer units
 
Bfalcon.cf said:
highly trained as in over and above the training of the regular soldiers. -longer durational training, -harder training, -better calibre soldiers, -generally volunteer units

The entire Canadian Army overseas was volunteer til about February 1945 (excepting those that went to Kiska).

As for longer duration of training, the First Division trained in the UK from December 1939 to July 1943...does it get longer than that? 

I would suggest that the Canadian Army had nothing of the type of thing you're thinking of, outside 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion - and even then, I wouldn't classify them above the rest of the army.  They simply specialized in parachute training; once they were on the ground, I've not read anything to suggest they were any better or worse than standard infantry units in the field.

I would stack the Calgary Highlanders, Hasty P's, Highland Light Infantry, Queen's Own Rifles, the Perths, or the Algonquin Regiment up against 1 Can Para any day of the week.
 
Actually Michael the 1st Canadian Division was clear of the UK before the end of June 1943.

"On June 28th the Derbyshire weighed anchor and sailed down the Clyde for the open sea."

Other units had been sailing from the UK since about the middle of June. There were two convoys, one dubbed SLOW, the other FAST. Infantry Anti-Tank units along with Artillery and Transport had been loading and sailing from ports like Hamilton, Liverpool etc since the 16th of June.

And while I'm at it I would stack the 48th up against any unit any time anywhere.

Aye Dileas
 
A longer and more detailed version of the 1st Division's departure from the UK, it is to be the next page on my web site:

http://dileas.mapleleafup.org/



Journey to Battle


When the assault ships left the Clyde, they moved the over near the coast of Ireland, where the fast Assault Convoy was forming up. Meanwhile, the Slow Assault convoy which had left about a week before carrying the divisional transport and guns was preceding ahead of the Fast Convoy.

The loading of the transport, carriers and new 6pdr anti-tank guns had been taking place since the first week in June at various ports along the Clyde. Most of the 1st Battalion's equipment was on the S.S. City of Venice which sailed on the 19th of June. There were four Canadian Convoys totalling 125 transports and escorts. Two of the convoys were bound for Sicily the other two to Algeria.

On board the Derbyshire Col. Johnston closed down all the Men's Canteens and Officer's Bars. As well as the 48th there were two Groups of Royal Marine Commandos, a platoon of the R.C.R., and a company of Hasty Ps. It was crowded so the watches were doubled and some of the men slept on deck to allieve the overcrowding in the holds below.July 1st came and the announcement of their destination quenched all rumours of Burma or North Africa. The secret battle orders that the C.O. had prepared earlier were retrieved from the ship's safe and the officers were briefed on their tasks during the assault. The officers in turn briefed their sub units. Everyone was issued British tropical uniforms, some had been made in Britain and some in India.

The Fast and Slow convoys made their way towards the Mediterranean with the expectation of joining up just past Gibralter. Disaster stuck the Slow convoy and three ships were sunk. One the City of Venice carried all of the 48th's transport, carriers and their drivers.
â Å“Bill Stag and me were just standing around the rear deck in our shorts getting some fresh air, it was just coming on evening when all of a sudden there was one hell of a bang and the mast fell down. Bill said â Å“Christ we've been torpedoedâ ?. Men started coming up from below and Bill said, â Å“We had better get that raft over the sideâ ?, and with that he tried to cut the line with his issue knife. It had been painted so often that he couldn't make a dent in it. â Å“Somebody get a bloody fire axe,â ? he shouted, and someone did. With the axe we were able to chop through the rope and the raft slid free and landed in the water upside down. We all jumped overboard and gathered around the raft. With the raft upside down we couldn't get at the paddles so Bill said â Å“I'll dive under and get themâ ? he did and that is the last that we saw of him. I think he got sucked through the hole that the torpedoe made. (Albert Wilson)

â Å“Yeah, well we watched it, we were in the Durwent Hall ahead of you, but we kept going. Then we hit a mine, the paravane hit the mine, they left a Corvette or some other kind of escort going around us. Well they sent a couple of the ship's crew down into the bow to see what the extent of the damage was, and it was leaking. The plates were leaking but the crew said the pumps could keep up to it. It was alright we could land. So we did and we caught up to the convoy it was the Slow convoy which left Liverpool...Birkenhead, the same as you guys eh, but we went ahead of time and we were going slower, and you guys past us I think just after we went through the Straights of Gibralter.â ? (Bill Elms)

â Å“Yeah that's where we got it. Yep I can still see those poor devils they didn't rescue. You know going along with their Mae Wests on, with the lights on...way in the distance. I can still see those lights, it still bothers me sometimes ......all those years it still bothers me to see all those in the water.â ? (Albert Wilson)

â Å“Seeing that first ship go down during the day (S.S. St. Essylt) ....Jimmy Felstead and I had just come up from lunch, leaning over the rail and looking at the blinking convoy and there was a huge explosion and the bloody ship stopped dead and started to fill up. It was gone in seventeen minutes. We could see the guys jumping off, the convoy sped up to get out of the way. That ship was torpedoed from inside the convoy, It's just my thought but the convoy was in three columns and that ship was in the middle column. So how did he pick the middle ship unless he was inside the convoy.â ? (Bill Elms)(The preceeding was extracted from a conversation that took place in 1986. Cpl. William Stagg is remembered by a plaque at the Commonwealth Cemetary at Cassino)

Dick Kenzie was at the Bow of the City of Venice and had much the same experience. "We came up on deck and no one was fully dressed except Sergeant Vic Jackson. One of the escort ships pulled it's bow along the Port bow of our ship and men started jumping down on to it." "One of the men, Harry Dockerty fell in the water and swam under the City of Venice to get to the starboard side where the rafts and boats were being lowered. We couldn't cut the rope to release the Carley raft and were about to jump in the water when a British sailor came along and cut it with one swipe of his knife. We then went down a scamble net and got on the raft and started to paddle away from the sinking ship. Next day an escort ship threw us a rope the end of which had been braided into five tails so that a number of men could take hold of it and pull the raft along side. The sea was rough with swells about ten feet and we were only able to get off the raft two at a time when the swell brought the raft up near the deck of the escort". "When we landed in Algeria the only one in uniform was Sergeant Jackson, a British Sergeant on the dock asked him "What have we got here Sergeant Jerries or Eities"". (Dick Kenzie)

One officer and fifty six other ranks were lost in the sinking of the City of Venice, plus five hundred vehicles and forty guns. The survivors were taken to Algiers and lock up in a POW cage for security purposes. Across the road in another cage were Jerry POWs.   â Å“They guarded us tighter than they guarded the Germansâ ? After the assault had gone in the survivors were released and used to ferry vehicles from the British 8th Army depot in Africa to Sicily. (Bud Lloyd)

The Assault convoys in the meantime joined a vast Armada of 2760 ships forming up south of the Island of Malta. Ships had come from Britain, the U.S.A. and various ports in North Africa. The landing zones covered a distance of 69 miles from the British divisions on the east side to the American divisions on the west side. 400 transport aircraft and 137 gliders carried the British and American Airborne divisions from Kairouan Tunisia to their drop zones. The 1st Canadian Division was assigned to land at Roger Beach with the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment and the Royal Canadian Regiment leading with the 48th Highlanders following.

Anchors of the Canadian Flotila were let go about midnight of the 9/10 July. The British submarine Unrivaled was waiting at sea to mark the position for the Command ship Hilary about seven miles off shore, the troopers moved in to about four miles off shore. The 48th were called to their emergency stations at 2353 hrs. The Commando units were loaded into their assault boats ready to go and the Warships began their Fire Tasks. At 0110hrs the Commando LCAs were lowered into a rough sea and off they went. "A" Coy of the Hasty Ps were next and they were away from the Derbyshire before word of a postponment reached the ship. They ended up three miles west of their intended position.
Problems arose with the loading of the R.C.R. the seas were too rough for the assault boats and LCTs had to be brought in to take them off. The first wave moved off at 0400, 2-1/2 hours behind schedule.

"0430 hours: Action at last! The watched and debated LCI, which had been hovering around for two hours but refusing to come within hailing range, suddenly headed purposefully toward the Derbyshire. Her skipper had either received orders to start taking off the 48th Highlanders, or the coming of daylight had convinced him he could delay no longer. With hoarse bellowings, and much trouble getting a line fast, the two craft were finally brought close. Colonel Johnston ordered the first scramble net heaved over on the LCI's next roll-the moment its low rails were close enough. It was a good heave by the crew, and he was first down, with steadying hands on the top of the net, but not at the bottom where it mattered. Leaping to those steel decks in steel-heeled and steel-toed boots was not a feat for the timid, but the lithe Colonel went down in a scrambling slide, and a l0 foot jump. As he steadied the net below for Lt. Johnny Clarkson, who followed him down, he heard a voice casually suggesting: "Shall we go to my cabin, Colonel?" It was the Skipper of the LCI. They shook hands a bit stiffly. With commendable patience after the strain and irritations of the night, the Colonel understood that the amenities of the sea and the Silent Service were going to be observed at all cost. He went along with it. It was an odd meeting-at-sea of sailor and soldier. "Can I offer you a drink of Scotch, Colonel?" The Skipper asked The C.O. knew by the clanging and shouts on deck, that the Battalion was now coming down the nets in a swarm, with enough men below to hold the nets tight to the rail for others, so he accepted the invitation."   (Dileas by Kim Beattie)
The LCI struck an unmarked sandbar before getting to shore and the men had to be off loaded into DUKWs and ferried ashore. Once ashore they got into a hassle with the Beachmaster who they promptly told to go to Hell. The 48th were fed up with the series of SNAFUs they had been put through and just wanted to get off the beach.
Meanwhile back in Algiers the survivors of the City of Venice were loaded on to an American built Landing Ship crewed by the Royal navy;

"They loaded us on to this old tub it had twelve engine but only three of them worked. The RN types didn't know how to repair the engines so we set off creeping along the coast looking for a US base that could repair the engines. We finally came to the port of Sfax in Tunisia where we left the ship. In Sfax we picked up some beat up old British Army carriers drove them on to an LST and were ferried across to Sicily." (Dick Kenzie)
 
The trainin of the 1 para and the 1st spec service force (black devils) was far more intense however than any other canadian regiment (from what I have read). certainly more intense and tougher, not that Canada's regular and militias weren't tough-they were obviously so, probably much more than the british and yank units. What would u say that canada's army role was-shock troops and light infantry?
 
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